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This grosses me out a little, especially because the daughter is well into adulthood. Would this extend to being able to control if the daughter wants to do oth

This grosses me out a little, especially because the daughter is well into adulthood. Would this extend to being able to control if the daughter wants to do other things, like get medical procedures (fertility treatments? surgery to remove uterus etc)? Editing to add: I think there's confusion in that I'm claiming fertility treatment is the same as suicide. I'm saying the logic the father is using makes no distinction that suicide is somehow special in this regard: his only justification is that she "has a personality disorder" and therefore shouldn't be allowed to make her own decisions with the medical authorities, because the father is deciding it is harmful to her. This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make.

ninetyninenine 2y ago
I don’t think you’re empathetic enough to see the situation from the father’s perspective. You’re just seeing from your perspective where your father is controlling you. Do you have kids or a boyfriend or a husband? Someone you love the most. Imagine them taking a gun and putting a bullet into their own brain. That’s equivalent to what the father is trying to stop from his perspective. What is happening here is on a whole different scale then fertility treatments. There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. There is no turning back from self slaughter. And there is always potential to change their mind. Additionally the fathers claim that the suicidal tendency is from a personality disorder is not out of this world. The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  > There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets. > The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end. Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    > One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets. Good argument. It applies to murder and mass genocide as well. All those people killed during the holocaust? They are dead so they don’t feel anything anymore. I don’t see what the problem is. > Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example. Plenty of stories of people getting treated and plenty of stories of people who lost their desire to suicide. Say your 18 year old son wanted to kill himself because he got dumped by his first girl friend? “Son I respect your right to kill yourself, here’s a rope or if you prefer a gun or sleeping pills. Would you like some privacy or do you want me to be here by your side as you go through the process?”
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      > Good argument. It applies to murder and mass genocide as well. All those people killed during the holocaust? They are dead so they don’t feel anything anymore. I don’t see what the problem is. Are you comparing people who took a decision to end their life with people who never asked to be killed? > Plenty of stories of people getting treated and plenty of stories of people who lost their desire to suicide. Getting treated != healed.
      - ninetyninenine 2y ago
        >Are you comparing people who took a decision to end their life with people who never asked to be killed? No I am not. I am saying your logic is invalid because it DOES apply to people who never asked to be killed. If you USE your logic to justify euthansia, then I'm saying it's invalid because that argument can justify murder as well. >Getting treated != healed. So you're saying people can never be healed through treatment? I think we have a bigger societal problem here. Psychologists and doctors have no reason to exist in this world because their entire job is treatment and treatment doesn't heal people. We should concentrate on solving that problem first. To honest, you can't respond to a complex statement with a simple one liner argument that completely mischaracterizes what's going on. You = wrong.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  One can understand where the father is coming from without wanting to give him power over his daughter's choices. It is appropriate to give him compassion and support, not legal domination over another adult, who has her own life to live - or not! - as she sees fit.
clcaev 2y ago
It is challenging in the US for a woman in their 20s or 30s to have their tubes tied.
MisterTea 2y ago
Are you seriously comparing non-life threatening medical procedures to assisted suicide? How are you that far off into the weeds?
- KittenInABox 2y ago
  I'm saying there's no real difference in being able to uniformly say a father should be able to control her daughter's body in medical decisions if it is doctor-approved suicide or doctor-approved uterus removal, if the father gets to just say "well she has a personality disorder, the government is responsible in protecting her by preventing her from medically-approved treatments".
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    So if my schizophrenic daughter decides to euthanize herself because of a recent hallucination I should not intervene? I’d be controlling her body even though when the hallucinations abate later she’d be thanking me for saving her?
MisterTea 2y ago
> This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make. Would you be as concerned if the subjects were a mother and daughter or father and son? Your focus seems to be on the "man controlling woman" aspect instead of "father desperately trying to save his daughter."
- KittenInABox 2y ago
  I think it's wrong to control any adult's medical decisions who has been found of sound mind. If you want to argue she is not of sound mind, demand a review of the medical board, but if they confirm she is 100% doing this rationally then it is not "saving" her, it is indeed merely a man exerting control over an adult woman. [I do not consider fatherhood special in this regard-- the notion of men being entitled to a woman's medical decisions because of a familial relationship is something that should be questioned and challenged.]

ninetyninenine 2y ago

I don’t think you’re empathetic enough to see the situation from the father’s perspective. You’re just seeing from your perspective where your father is controlling you. Do you have kids or a boyfriend or a husband? Someone you love the most. Imagine them taking a gun and putting a bullet into their own brain. That’s equivalent to what the father is trying to stop from his perspective. What is happening here is on a whole different scale then fertility treatments. There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. There is no turning back from self slaughter. And there is always potential to change their mind. Additionally the fathers claim that the suicidal tendency is from a personality disorder is not out of this world. The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end.

prmoustache 2y ago
> There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets. > The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end. Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  > One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets. Good argument. It applies to murder and mass genocide as well. All those people killed during the holocaust? They are dead so they don’t feel anything anymore. I don’t see what the problem is. > Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example. Plenty of stories of people getting treated and plenty of stories of people who lost their desire to suicide. Say your 18 year old son wanted to kill himself because he got dumped by his first girl friend? “Son I respect your right to kill yourself, here’s a rope or if you prefer a gun or sleeping pills. Would you like some privacy or do you want me to be here by your side as you go through the process?”
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    > Good argument. It applies to murder and mass genocide as well. All those people killed during the holocaust? They are dead so they don’t feel anything anymore. I don’t see what the problem is. Are you comparing people who took a decision to end their life with people who never asked to be killed? > Plenty of stories of people getting treated and plenty of stories of people who lost their desire to suicide. Getting treated != healed.
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      >Are you comparing people who took a decision to end their life with people who never asked to be killed? No I am not. I am saying your logic is invalid because it DOES apply to people who never asked to be killed. If you USE your logic to justify euthansia, then I'm saying it's invalid because that argument can justify murder as well. >Getting treated != healed. So you're saying people can never be healed through treatment? I think we have a bigger societal problem here. Psychologists and doctors have no reason to exist in this world because their entire job is treatment and treatment doesn't heal people. We should concentrate on solving that problem first. To honest, you can't respond to a complex statement with a simple one liner argument that completely mischaracterizes what's going on. You = wrong.
marssaxman 2y ago
One can understand where the father is coming from without wanting to give him power over his daughter's choices. It is appropriate to give him compassion and support, not legal domination over another adult, who has her own life to live - or not! - as she sees fit.

clcaev 2y ago

It is challenging in the US for a woman in their 20s or 30s to have their tubes tied.

MisterTea 2y ago

Are you seriously comparing non-life threatening medical procedures to assisted suicide? How are you that far off into the weeds?

KittenInABox 2y ago
I'm saying there's no real difference in being able to uniformly say a father should be able to control her daughter's body in medical decisions if it is doctor-approved suicide or doctor-approved uterus removal, if the father gets to just say "well she has a personality disorder, the government is responsible in protecting her by preventing her from medically-approved treatments".
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  So if my schizophrenic daughter decides to euthanize herself because of a recent hallucination I should not intervene? I’d be controlling her body even though when the hallucinations abate later she’d be thanking me for saving her?

MisterTea 2y ago

> This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make. Would you be as concerned if the subjects were a mother and daughter or father and son? Your focus seems to be on the "man controlling woman" aspect instead of "father desperately trying to save his daughter."

KittenInABox 2y ago
I think it's wrong to control any adult's medical decisions who has been found of sound mind. If you want to argue she is not of sound mind, demand a review of the medical board, but if they confirm she is 100% doing this rationally then it is not "saving" her, it is indeed merely a man exerting control over an adult woman. [I do not consider fatherhood special in this regard-- the notion of men being entitled to a woman's medical decisions because of a familial relationship is something that should be questioned and challenged.]