4 ms·

Whether you're for or against someone deciding for themselves when to end their lives; whether you're for or against someone deciding to end their suffering; yo

Whether you're for or against someone deciding for themselves when to end their lives; whether you're for or against someone deciding to end their suffering; you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist. Botched suicides end up with way more suffering for all parties involved.

btilly 2y ago
The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. The vast majority of medically assisted suicide attempts end with a dead person. Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.
- russdill 2y ago
  "The 23-year-old woman who wants to end her life is paraplegic due to injuries suffered when she tried to take her own life in 2022."
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    If her suicide was successfully stopped this wouldn’t have happened. Now she’s trying to suicide again.
  - btilly 2y ago
    The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, that can happen. That's not what happens most of the time.
    - philipwhiuk 2y ago
      Uncited statements isn't data either.
      - btilly 2y ago
        If you doubt the statement, you can go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt to verify it. Or you could accept that someone who has been through this, might have done some research.
- iambateman 2y ago
  Ben, I'm really sad to hear that happened to you and your daughter. Thanks for adding your perspective.
- dylan604 2y ago
  > The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. Wow, where did you come up with this? It's even in TFA refuting this, but even outside of that, the comment is utter horse shit. Maybe some types of attempts have no visible physical effects, but there are plenty of people with visible scars from their attempts. I would also be willing to guess that 100% have mental long-term effects from any attempt.
  - nsxwolf 2y ago
    So we should make sure that they're dead, so that they don't have any scars or long term effects?
  - btilly 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt quotes the figure that only one out of a dozen suicide attempts succeeds. The most common method is pills. The most common outcome is complete physical recovery. That was the case with my daughter. The mental effects are real, but hard to differentiate from the effects of the mental state that drove the suicide attempt. Note, the success rate varies. Older people succeed at a higher rate. And so do men.
    - Brybry 2y ago
      That wiki article cites https://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars https://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars (which I guess is now https://wisqars.cdc.gov/ https://wisqars.cdc.gov/) and doesn't really show us how that number came about. But let's say you look at 2022 data for Fatal/NonFatal Injury Reports.[1] 49,476 suicide deaths with 14.85/100k crude rate and 14.25 age-adjusted rate. There is no 'suicide attempt' category that I can find for NonFatal. There's a self-harm category.[2] 544,992 self-harm non-fatal injuries with 163.52/100k crude rate and 172.91 age-adjusted rate. Sure, we could divide those out and reach roughly 1 in 11 to 1 in 12. But if you look at the definition for self-harm intent in the coding manual[3] you'll see that it's not just suicide -- it's all forms of self-harm including mutilation. So it's probably not an accurate number, even for a naive estimate. I would want a better source (surely someone somewhere has written a paper on this). [1] https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=MORT&y1=2022&y2=2022&t=0&d=&i=0&m=20810&g=00&me=0&s=0&r=0&ry=2&e=0&yp=65&a=ALL&g1=0&g2=199&a1=0&a2=199&r1=INTENT&r2=NONE&r3=NONE&r4=NONE https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=MORT&y1=2022&y2=2022&t=0&... [2] https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=NFI&y1=2022&y2=2022&d=0&i=0&m=3000&g=00&me=&s=0&r=&e=&a=ALL&g1=0&g2=199&a1=0&a2=199&r1=INTENT&r2=NONE&r3=NONE&r4=NONE&adv=true https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=NFI&y1=2022&y2=2022&d=0&i... [3] https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/January-2022-CPSC-Only-NT-NEISS-Coding-Manual.pdf?VersionId=KSUolSeeOpWoGAXtq0Zb_EVaHSiOdzFe https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/January-2022-CPSC-Only-NT-N...
- grayhatter 2y ago
  well as long you're the one who gets what they want... I wonder, did you consider that when physicians are involved, they don't provide assistance for treatable depression? Or did you assume that physicians would help someone suffering from ephemeral depression commit suicide?
  - btilly 2y ago
    Our treatments for depression basically don't work. But that is another story.
    - grayhatter 2y ago
      What a wild take! I'd love to see the citation for that claim?
      - btilly 2y ago
        Then you'll enjoy https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28178949/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28178949/.
        grayhatter 2y ago
        Oh, I knew first generation SSRIs have trouble beating placebo. I rate your evidence 0/10: did not enjoy. So now, what about all the other things that have shown to reduce symptoms of depression? I'd happily advocate for placebo + therapy. Does that work? How about exercise, does that work?
- notesinthefield 2y ago
  I dont think this perspective is valid in the context of a fully intentional and informed medically assisted suicide.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    It is valid. Euthanasia is suicide. If the bullet travels fast enough into the skull before the brain can register pain then there is no difference in experience from assisted suicide to eating a bullet. The only difference is the risk of a botched suicide but outside of that the two things are one and the same. I use extreme language here not to offend people but to illustrate that they are logically the same thing. If you think euthanasia is humane then so is putting a bullet in your own head. If you think putting a bullet in your own head is extreme, then so is euthanasia. Think logically. Also I love this idea of age being a marker for maturity and the ability to make your own decisions. If my daughter turns 18 at 12:00pm sharp then at 11:59am she is not mature enough to kill herself. But then one second later when she turns 18 she is now mature enough to kill herself in the same way trump and Elon musk are mature because they are past 18. Makes sense. I can assure you when I look at this world. Nobody is mature. The right and most mature action isn’t always apparent and people make mistakes all the time. For something like suicide I am happy that there are people who give a shit to intervene.
    - sepositus 2y ago
      It seems like it's perhaps the natural progression of an extreme sense of individualism. In an age where individual choice is elevated to the highest level possible, it naturally follows that someone should have the option to end their lives whenever they want. I think this view falls short because it seems to count the chances of someone making an uninformed mistake as an acceptable consequence of preserving individual choice. Personally, I can't agree with this view. I often state that my desire is to protect and preserve life when it comes to suicide and am met with backlash over "inserting myself into other people's lives." When the reality is I've been close to several suicides (due to my community role) where the general community consensus was that the person was dealing with a complex mental health issue and the medical system more or less failed them. I don't propose to win anybody to my side, but I think the whole topic requires a lot of nuance and shouldn't be simplified.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person. Having been on the other side, I prefer otherwise. I also strongly reject the idea that my father should have a say in what I do with my body. Sorry, this is an emotional response, and I hope that it ended well for you and your loved ones. For me it did not.
  - aipatselarom 2y ago
    Your point of view is important, I wouldn't want it to be misinterpreted or any of that sort. What you're saying is: 1. You tried to end your life. 2. Because of the intervention of other people, most likely your family, that didn't happen. 3. You wish that didn't happen and instead would prefer to be dead. Right?
    - kergonath 2y ago
      Not because of their intervention, and point 3 is not simple as that (otherwise I’d have done it again, I am not as unlucky as the lady in the story), but something along those lines, yes. Much unnecessary suffering. I won’t dwell on it because this is not the place, but I felt compelled to offer my perspective, which is that it is not always better to fail.
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  > Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person. You have my sympathy. But mentioning your preference and not your daughter's makes me wonder if they are the same.
  - btilly 2y ago
    They are the same at present, and she is inproving over time.
morkalork 2y ago
One of the most Shakespearean tragedies I've heard in real life is the story of someone who tried hanging themselves before MAID became available. They were found and rescued but suffered brain damage. Now they're trapped in a long term care home and wheelchair bound. They'll still tell you they want to die but because of the brain damage they've been declared inapt and thus cannot consent to to MAID.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  We had some training (I'm a paramedic) about our death with dignity legislation: What to do if someone else has taken the drug cocktail (messy but if found soon enough we can usually take care of them)... .. what if someone has taken it and "changed their mind" or "it hasn't worked". In the former, we typically get the professionals who were involved there - is it a case of being (understandably) scared about what will happen, versus ... ? The other is that in some people the cocktail can take an extended time to work - 24, 48 hours. Forgive the black humor, but what does that 911 call look like? "I'm not dead and I'm meant to be, I took my cocktail of death-with-dignity meds and I'm still here."
nsxwolf 2y ago
Unless you think consequentialism is immoral. If you believe that it is never acceptable to participate in suicide in any way, you absolutely should not want this.
- david-gpu 2y ago
  You do not have to participate in assisted suicide if you don't want to. That doesn't mean you're are entitled to stop others.
  - nsxwolf 2y ago
    Ok, but OP told me what I should want, and I am refuting that.
  - _90ew 2y ago
    .
    - Henchman21 2y ago
      And what of the entitlement of society keeping people alive to live out this dystopian nightmare we’ve created for ourselves? At what point does human dignity factor in to all this? Because all I see are people trying to escape a nightmare and others trying to prevent it. To what end? To what degree must I participate in this hell?
    - david-gpu 2y ago
      I hope that if your life ever becomes unbearable you will have the option available to you to end it with dignity at your own convenience. Or perhaps you would prefer the opposite?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- grayhatter 2y ago
  > If you believe that it is never acceptable to participate in suicide in any way, you absolutely should not want this. This is interesting, if you have a reason to believe this that's not some flavor of "my religion told me to", I'd love to hear your justification for why it's never acceptable?
moralestapia 2y ago
Very wrong, if an issue is decided to be unethical, no party should take part in facilitating it. You're also using a loaded argument. >you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist ... implies you're already "for it". Some people are against euthanasia, that does not make them wrong, even if you disagree with them. Act like an adult.
- ThrowawayP 2y ago
  "My body, my choice" applies to more than one issue related to bodily autonomy. Others get no say in what an individual may do with their own bodies.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    Yah, good one. Unfortunately, that is not some kind of universally agreed ethical principle, so I am not sure what value it brings to this conversation.
    - mariusor 2y ago
      Outside of ethical systems with heavy religious influences, what kind of society doesn't accept one's autonomy over their own body?
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        All of them. Is there a country without draft?
        mariusor 2y ago
        I think the draft qualifies as "exigent conditions" in which some rights and ethics get suspended in favour of the "greater good", or if you mean mandatory military service, I think most western nations stopped having that. Do you have something more mundane in mind? [edit] To answer your question: yes, there are only 66 countries with mandatory military service. Among the Western democracies there are the Nordics, Estonia, Austria and Greece. From here: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-mandatory-military-service https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...
rdtsc 2y ago
> you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist Up until they start getting paid for it, and then you'll find out they'll start recommending their services and convincing you or your loved ones to take them up on their offer.

btilly 2y ago

The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. The vast majority of medically assisted suicide attempts end with a dead person. Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.

russdill 2y ago
"The 23-year-old woman who wants to end her life is paraplegic due to injuries suffered when she tried to take her own life in 2022."
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  If her suicide was successfully stopped this wouldn’t have happened. Now she’s trying to suicide again.
- btilly 2y ago
  The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, that can happen. That's not what happens most of the time.
  - philipwhiuk 2y ago
    Uncited statements isn't data either.
    - btilly 2y ago
      If you doubt the statement, you can go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt to verify it. Or you could accept that someone who has been through this, might have done some research.
iambateman 2y ago
Ben, I'm really sad to hear that happened to you and your daughter. Thanks for adding your perspective.
dylan604 2y ago
> The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. Wow, where did you come up with this? It's even in TFA refuting this, but even outside of that, the comment is utter horse shit. Maybe some types of attempts have no visible physical effects, but there are plenty of people with visible scars from their attempts. I would also be willing to guess that 100% have mental long-term effects from any attempt.
- nsxwolf 2y ago
  So we should make sure that they're dead, so that they don't have any scars or long term effects?
- btilly 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt quotes the figure that only one out of a dozen suicide attempts succeeds. The most common method is pills. The most common outcome is complete physical recovery. That was the case with my daughter. The mental effects are real, but hard to differentiate from the effects of the mental state that drove the suicide attempt. Note, the success rate varies. Older people succeed at a higher rate. And so do men.
  - Brybry 2y ago
    That wiki article cites https://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars https://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars (which I guess is now https://wisqars.cdc.gov/ https://wisqars.cdc.gov/) and doesn't really show us how that number came about. But let's say you look at 2022 data for Fatal/NonFatal Injury Reports.[1] 49,476 suicide deaths with 14.85/100k crude rate and 14.25 age-adjusted rate. There is no 'suicide attempt' category that I can find for NonFatal. There's a self-harm category.[2] 544,992 self-harm non-fatal injuries with 163.52/100k crude rate and 172.91 age-adjusted rate. Sure, we could divide those out and reach roughly 1 in 11 to 1 in 12. But if you look at the definition for self-harm intent in the coding manual[3] you'll see that it's not just suicide -- it's all forms of self-harm including mutilation. So it's probably not an accurate number, even for a naive estimate. I would want a better source (surely someone somewhere has written a paper on this). [1] https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=MORT&y1=2022&y2=2022&t=0&d=&i=0&m=20810&g=00&me=0&s=0&r=0&ry=2&e=0&yp=65&a=ALL&g1=0&g2=199&a1=0&a2=199&r1=INTENT&r2=NONE&r3=NONE&r4=NONE https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=MORT&y1=2022&y2=2022&t=0&... [2] https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=NFI&y1=2022&y2=2022&d=0&i=0&m=3000&g=00&me=&s=0&r=&e=&a=ALL&g1=0&g2=199&a1=0&a2=199&r1=INTENT&r2=NONE&r3=NONE&r4=NONE&adv=true https://wisqars.cdc.gov/reports/?o=NFI&y1=2022&y2=2022&d=0&i... [3] https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/January-2022-CPSC-Only-NT-NEISS-Coding-Manual.pdf?VersionId=KSUolSeeOpWoGAXtq0Zb_EVaHSiOdzFe https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/January-2022-CPSC-Only-NT-N...
grayhatter 2y ago
well as long you're the one who gets what they want... I wonder, did you consider that when physicians are involved, they don't provide assistance for treatable depression? Or did you assume that physicians would help someone suffering from ephemeral depression commit suicide?
- btilly 2y ago
  Our treatments for depression basically don't work. But that is another story.
  - grayhatter 2y ago
    What a wild take! I'd love to see the citation for that claim?
    - btilly 2y ago
      Then you'll enjoy https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28178949/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28178949/.
      - grayhatter 2y ago
        Oh, I knew first generation SSRIs have trouble beating placebo. I rate your evidence 0/10: did not enjoy. So now, what about all the other things that have shown to reduce symptoms of depression? I'd happily advocate for placebo + therapy. Does that work? How about exercise, does that work?
notesinthefield 2y ago
I dont think this perspective is valid in the context of a fully intentional and informed medically assisted suicide.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  It is valid. Euthanasia is suicide. If the bullet travels fast enough into the skull before the brain can register pain then there is no difference in experience from assisted suicide to eating a bullet. The only difference is the risk of a botched suicide but outside of that the two things are one and the same. I use extreme language here not to offend people but to illustrate that they are logically the same thing. If you think euthanasia is humane then so is putting a bullet in your own head. If you think putting a bullet in your own head is extreme, then so is euthanasia. Think logically. Also I love this idea of age being a marker for maturity and the ability to make your own decisions. If my daughter turns 18 at 12:00pm sharp then at 11:59am she is not mature enough to kill herself. But then one second later when she turns 18 she is now mature enough to kill herself in the same way trump and Elon musk are mature because they are past 18. Makes sense. I can assure you when I look at this world. Nobody is mature. The right and most mature action isn’t always apparent and people make mistakes all the time. For something like suicide I am happy that there are people who give a shit to intervene.
  - sepositus 2y ago
    It seems like it's perhaps the natural progression of an extreme sense of individualism. In an age where individual choice is elevated to the highest level possible, it naturally follows that someone should have the option to end their lives whenever they want. I think this view falls short because it seems to count the chances of someone making an uninformed mistake as an acceptable consequence of preserving individual choice. Personally, I can't agree with this view. I often state that my desire is to protect and preserve life when it comes to suicide and am met with backlash over "inserting myself into other people's lives." When the reality is I've been close to several suicides (due to my community role) where the general community consensus was that the person was dealing with a complex mental health issue and the medical system more or less failed them. I don't propose to win anybody to my side, but I think the whole topic requires a lot of nuance and shouldn't be simplified.
kergonath 2y ago
> Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person. Having been on the other side, I prefer otherwise. I also strongly reject the idea that my father should have a say in what I do with my body. Sorry, this is an emotional response, and I hope that it ended well for you and your loved ones. For me it did not.
- aipatselarom 2y ago
  Your point of view is important, I wouldn't want it to be misinterpreted or any of that sort. What you're saying is: 1. You tried to end your life. 2. Because of the intervention of other people, most likely your family, that didn't happen. 3. You wish that didn't happen and instead would prefer to be dead. Right?
  - kergonath 2y ago
    Not because of their intervention, and point 3 is not simple as that (otherwise I’d have done it again, I am not as unlucky as the lady in the story), but something along those lines, yes. Much unnecessary suffering. I won’t dwell on it because this is not the place, but I felt compelled to offer my perspective, which is that it is not always better to fail.
pseudalopex 2y ago
> Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person. You have my sympathy. But mentioning your preference and not your daughter's makes me wonder if they are the same.
- btilly 2y ago
  They are the same at present, and she is inproving over time.

morkalork 2y ago

One of the most Shakespearean tragedies I've heard in real life is the story of someone who tried hanging themselves before MAID became available. They were found and rescued but suffered brain damage. Now they're trapped in a long term care home and wheelchair bound. They'll still tell you they want to die but because of the brain damage they've been declared inapt and thus cannot consent to to MAID.

FireBeyond 2y ago
We had some training (I'm a paramedic) about our death with dignity legislation: What to do if someone else has taken the drug cocktail (messy but if found soon enough we can usually take care of them)... .. what if someone has taken it and "changed their mind" or "it hasn't worked". In the former, we typically get the professionals who were involved there - is it a case of being (understandably) scared about what will happen, versus ... ? The other is that in some people the cocktail can take an extended time to work - 24, 48 hours. Forgive the black humor, but what does that 911 call look like? "I'm not dead and I'm meant to be, I took my cocktail of death-with-dignity meds and I'm still here."

nsxwolf 2y ago

Unless you think consequentialism is immoral. If you believe that it is never acceptable to participate in suicide in any way, you absolutely should not want this.

david-gpu 2y ago
You do not have to participate in assisted suicide if you don't want to. That doesn't mean you're are entitled to stop others.
- nsxwolf 2y ago
  Ok, but OP told me what I should want, and I am refuting that.
- _90ew 2y ago
  .
  - Henchman21 2y ago
    And what of the entitlement of society keeping people alive to live out this dystopian nightmare we’ve created for ourselves? At what point does human dignity factor in to all this? Because all I see are people trying to escape a nightmare and others trying to prevent it. To what end? To what degree must I participate in this hell?
  - david-gpu 2y ago
    I hope that if your life ever becomes unbearable you will have the option available to you to end it with dignity at your own convenience. Or perhaps you would prefer the opposite?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
grayhatter 2y ago
> If you believe that it is never acceptable to participate in suicide in any way, you absolutely should not want this. This is interesting, if you have a reason to believe this that's not some flavor of "my religion told me to", I'd love to hear your justification for why it's never acceptable?

moralestapia 2y ago

Very wrong, if an issue is decided to be unethical, no party should take part in facilitating it. You're also using a loaded argument. >you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist ... implies you're already "for it". Some people are against euthanasia, that does not make them wrong, even if you disagree with them. Act like an adult.

ThrowawayP 2y ago
"My body, my choice" applies to more than one issue related to bodily autonomy. Others get no say in what an individual may do with their own bodies.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  Yah, good one. Unfortunately, that is not some kind of universally agreed ethical principle, so I am not sure what value it brings to this conversation.
  - mariusor 2y ago
    Outside of ethical systems with heavy religious influences, what kind of society doesn't accept one's autonomy over their own body?
    - lostmsu 2y ago
      All of them. Is there a country without draft?
      - mariusor 2y ago
        I think the draft qualifies as "exigent conditions" in which some rights and ethics get suspended in favour of the "greater good", or if you mean mandatory military service, I think most western nations stopped having that. Do you have something more mundane in mind? [edit] To answer your question: yes, there are only 66 countries with mandatory military service. Among the Western democracies there are the Nordics, Estonia, Austria and Greece. From here: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-mandatory-military-service https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries...

rdtsc 2y ago

> you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist Up until they start getting paid for it, and then you'll find out they'll start recommending their services and convincing you or your loved ones to take them up on their offer.