6 ms·
It’s appalling to see so many comments here defending what’s going on. I’m trying to take it in good faith and accept these people actually think this instead
by wtcactus 2y ago
It’s appalling to see so many comments here defending what’s going on.
I’m trying to take it in good faith and accept these people actually think this instead of being paid to spread Russian disinformation. So, for those that are in good faith, as an European, I’ll explain mine (and my close circle) position:
It’s true that the USA doesn’t have any obligation of helping Ukraine and should be up to us, Europeans, to step up. But, Trump didn’t need to be a Russian disinformation asset about it and go through that, despicable , petty, childish display in the White House, where, preying together with his VP, they tried to frame Zelenskyy and Ukraine for starting a war.
They could just politely, and diplomatic reduce US aid, while still abiding by the most basic, absolute truth: Putin started this war and all fault for it lies in Russian hands and Ukraine is just a victim in all this.
This would be the upright, sensible and intelligent position to hold if they really just didn’t want to continue contributing to Ukraine’s defense with US’ money.
- lfmunoz4 2y agoDo you remember what happened when Russia tried to install missiles in Cuba? The USA put its foot down and was willing to have a nuclear war. Same thing is happening in Russia, making Ukraine part of NATO is just too close. Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
- wtcactus 2y agoDo you remember that started because Russia already invaded part of Ukraine in 2014? Do you remember Russia’s promises when Ukraine voluntarily ceded their nuclear arsenal to Russia?
- lfmunoz4 2y agoNot sure what the point you are making is? Should we just keep going back in history and try to cherry pick events to blame and justify current conflicts? That can go on indefinitely and is why we keep having wars.
- dragonwriter 2y agoThe current war started with the 2014 invasion by Russia. Claiming that the invasion of Ukraine by Russia is caused and justified by a thing which happened after and in response to that invasion is arguing for retrocausality. It is not "going back in history and cherry picking events" to point out when and how the current war started in a discussion of the causes of the current war, especially when an event that happened after and in response to the start of the current war is argued to justify the aggressor in the current war.
- skinnymuch 2y agoIt started because of the western coup in Ukraine. Reminds me of people who say Oct 7 started the “war” in Palestine.
- dlahoda 2y agowhat do you mean by western coup? so you would preffer russian troops killing political opponents and protesters in ua, like they did since 1992 in belarus till these day to avoid """coup"""? or you prefer russian troops did 10x more massacre and hide it, instead they did 10x less in bucha and did not have time to hide? btw just talk with pl and cz old people how their western coup was going. seems like people prefer western coup to russian massacress and mass graves...
- skinnymuch 2y agoThe west does things even worse than that to non white people and the west does near nothing (usually perpetrating this behavior) to avoid coups the way you’re saying. There was a coup orchestrated by the west in Ukraine in 2014. Followed by an escalation of a complicated situation that is not clear cut like people in the west like to make things seem. After the coup, there was suppression of Russian things by the western backed and planted regime. Of course things may have eventually escalated if Ukraine and the west are doing that and the Russian separatists in the east are provoking in DPR and LDR. I am sympathetic to Kissinger, Dugin, and Mearsheimer views on geopolitics if you must know.
- GJim 2y agoExcept NATO is a defence organisation. Ask yourself why countries bordering Russia want to join.
- skinnymuch 2y ago[flagged]
- bigyabai 2y agoJudging by your frustration, the defenses are working perfectly.
- skinnymuch 2y agoFrustration from one line? You may be projecting?
- bartekpacia 2y agoWhat? Bullying who?
- skinnymuch 2y agoNATO aka the west aka colonizers.
- taskforcegemini 2y agowhat happened to you?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- skinnymuch 2y agoWhat do you mean?
- 2y ago
- layer8 2y agoHow is that related to the comment you’re replying to?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jsnider3 2y agoMaking Ukraine part of NATO is just something Putin made up, not an actual thing.
- CapricornNoble 2y agoI recommend reading some of the diplomatic cables on Wikileaks https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW3127_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW3127_a.html <--this one from 2008 has Russian diplomats warning about NATO expansion and Ukraine https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08KYIV1144_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08KYIV1144_a.html <-- this one is about Ukrainian spending on a pro-NATO information campaign The Ukrainian president who was anti-NATO is the one that the Euromaidan deposed. https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-scraps-nato-accession-plans/a-5434301 https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-scraps-nato-accession-plans/a-... Here's France24's take in 2014 when Ukraine voted to abandon "non-aligned" status: https://www.france24.com/en/20141223-ukraine-parliament-votes-scrap-non-aligned-status-russia-nato https://www.france24.com/en/20141223-ukraine-parliament-vote... Russia’s annexation of the Crimean Peninsula and its support for the separatist insurgency appear partly rooted in fears that the Western military alliance could expand its presence on the Russian border. Then in 2019 we have this: Ukraine President Signs Constitutional Amendment On NATO, EU Membership (Radio Free Europe, 2019) https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-signs-constitutional-amendment-on-nato-eu-membership/29779430.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-signs-constitution... Followed up by Zelensky doubling down on NATO later that same year: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-promises-nato-referendum-as-part-of-path-to-west/29982943.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-promises-nato-refe... And then Trump sending additional lethal aid to Ukraine at the end of the year: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/12/04/trump-to-seek-250m-in-new-lethal-aid-to-ukraine/ https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/12/04/trump-to-see... My personal opinion is that these events in 2019 were the last straw for Putin. He probably made the decision to invade early in 2020....but had to pause those plans while the whole world grappled with COVID. It then took them into mid-2021 to get the ball rolling on staging their forces for invasion, and then they were delayed again due to Xi Jinping telling Putin to not fuck up his Beijing Olympics or he wouldn't get tacit support from the PRC. All of which meant that the early-2022 invasion was likely caused by NATO-related issues that were looking increasingly concerning 3 years earlier.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> making Ukraine part of NATO is just too close. Ukraine (after abandoning efforts after the MAP rejection -- done at Russia's insistence -- in 2008) only started looking at NATO membership again after Russia invaded, so it is ludicrously disconnected from reality (but exactly representative of Russian propaganda!) to try to use that to justify the invasion.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mopsi 2y agoNobody installed any missiles in Ukraine. As to alliances, Cuba remained an ally of the USSR until its very end in 1991.