8 ms·

Father tries to block daughter's euthanasia in landmark Spanish case

52 points by impish9208 2y ago

_whiteCaps_ 2y ago
In Canada we call this MAID - medical assistance in dying. If you're undecided about this - ask a doctor or nurse about how they want to go. After watching my mom die of cancer, I'm glad that we have the option to go out on our own terms now.
- billy99k 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - llm_nerd 2y ago
    >This is barbaric Any country without universal healthcare is barbaric. Absolutely perverse that you try to pin this on "socialized healthcare" when you herald a nation with a lifespan a half decade shorter, and worse outcomes in most categories of illnesses. I'm a huge critic of the overreach of MAiD in Canada, but the number of people who die from treatable illnesses is much higher in the US, so maybe you should retire the tired "socialized healthcare" canard.
  - david-gpu 2y ago
    You are entitled to not want a dignified death for yourself. You are not entitled to take that right away from others.
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  "If you're undecided about this" As with many things, it's a very slippery slope and it is far more nuanced and not easily "decided". MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...). And of course we have expanded MAID to people suffering from mental illnesses, and it's something people are pursuing now because they can't afford rent. Oh and the government is recommending that MAiD be expanded to minors. And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    > MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp Yeah, this has pushed me from being roughly in favor of allowing it to considerable caution. It may or may not be OK for people to make the decision for themselves, but it absolutely is wrong to push people to it.
    - rtkwe 2y ago
      Don't overweight rare examples. This is basically the only one that I ever see brought up too because it was a fuck up. Plus it's not like there's any force to offering it.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        I fairly frequently encounter wildly incorrect statements made by public-facing roles. While this is the famous human-euthanasia-related headline example of "WTAF were they thinking?", I've got a few more of that ilk in various cases: • Doctors refusing abortions and the mother dying as a result, even though the law allowed abortion in such cases • The entire public discourse (shouting match) over the various covid vaccines, and of course the lockdowns — as HN has a broad audience, I should note that regardless of which group any reader of this message thinks was "right", both sides were very loudly convinced the other was risking lives, and that necessarily means that a lot of people were very loudly, very forcefully, wrong • The UK's DWP telling loads of people they were considered "fit for work" when they were gravely ill and died shortly after Outside of fatal cases, but still medical: • I've also noticed that almost every discussion where women share experiences of doctors, regardless of group size, there's women who report doctors ignoring evidence and these women having to solve their medical issues on their own • I've personally had a GP tell me something was impossible when it had actually happened — In my case, food ending up in nasal cavity, which was very easy for me to know had happened as the food exited about an hour later via a nostril, but the GP thought it was impossible • Unnecessary surgeries (and I don't mean purely cosmetic surgery) are a thing • Retained surgical instruments are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments Between unfeeling bureaucracies and emotional but flawed humans, there's a lot of room for people to end up pressured into unwanted euthanasia. Figuring out how to minimise suffering given all that? Well, even without that it would be beyond me. But it does make it harder.
- Symmetry 2y ago
  Of if you you don't want to trudge out to a hospital but are happy with written things by a doctor or quoting them: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-die.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-di... https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
- jsbisviewtiful 2y ago
  Just had a family member die after many years of descent into dementia. Absolutely don't want that for myself and would love the ejector seat as an option. Unfortunately the US is on an intellectual backslide, so hopefully in a few decades when I may also be susceptible something has changed and I will be allowed to do what I want with my own body and life.
inetknght 2y ago
Whether you're for or against someone deciding for themselves when to end their lives; whether you're for or against someone deciding to end their suffering; you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist. Botched suicides end up with way more suffering for all parties involved.
- btilly 2y ago
  The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. The vast majority of medically assisted suicide attempts end with a dead person. Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.
  - russdill 2y ago
    "The 23-year-old woman who wants to end her life is paraplegic due to injuries suffered when she tried to take her own life in 2022."
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      If her suicide was successfully stopped this wouldn’t have happened. Now she’s trying to suicide again.
    - btilly 2y ago
      The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, that can happen. That's not what happens most of the time.
      - philipwhiuk 2y ago
        Uncited statements isn't data either.
        btilly 2y ago
        If you doubt the statement, you can go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt to verify it. Or you could accept that someone who has been through this, might have done some research.
KittenInABox 2y ago
This grosses me out a little, especially because the daughter is well into adulthood. Would this extend to being able to control if the daughter wants to do other things, like get medical procedures (fertility treatments? surgery to remove uterus etc)? Editing to add: I think there's confusion in that I'm claiming fertility treatment is the same as suicide. I'm saying the logic the father is using makes no distinction that suicide is somehow special in this regard: his only justification is that she "has a personality disorder" and therefore shouldn't be allowed to make her own decisions with the medical authorities, because the father is deciding it is harmful to her. This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  I don’t think you’re empathetic enough to see the situation from the father’s perspective. You’re just seeing from your perspective where your father is controlling you. Do you have kids or a boyfriend or a husband? Someone you love the most. Imagine them taking a gun and putting a bullet into their own brain. That’s equivalent to what the father is trying to stop from his perspective. What is happening here is on a whole different scale then fertility treatments. There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. There is no turning back from self slaughter. And there is always potential to change their mind. Additionally the fathers claim that the suicidal tendency is from a personality disorder is not out of this world. The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    > There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets. > The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end. Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example.
rtkwe 2y ago
I feel for the dad but it really seems like a case he shouldn't even have standing to bring. The daughter is a full blown 23 year old adult, unless she's been adjudicated as incompetent to make her own decisions and he has a guardianship of some sort she should be fully autonomous.
- dylan604 2y ago
  I know by law a 23 year old is considered an adult, but full blown seems to be hyperbolic.
  - haunter 2y ago
    Founding fathers age on July 4, 1776: James Monroe, 18 Aaron Burr, 20 Alexander Hamilton, 21 James Madison, 25
    - arkey 2y ago
      Which shows pretty well how things have changed. People grew up earlier, before. Now, so many people at 30 years old are still children.
  - philipwhiuk 2y ago
    How old is 'full blown' in your view then? 30? 40? 50?
  - david-gpu 2y ago
    Being old enough to go to war means being old enough to make life altering decisions by herself.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      It is pretty well accepted that the human brain does not fully mature until mid-20s. So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult.
webstrand 2y ago
That's incredibly shortsighted if the court accepts the argument that she changed her mind a number of times. This only encourages people, who might change the minds and opt not to die, to stand by their decision even if uncertain or the court will rip away their choice.
mofeing 2y ago
The lawyer team of the father, "Abogados Cristianos", have a bad reputation here in Spain for suing everything they can that it's "not-conservative": from women trying to abort to comedians due to some joke. Most of their lawsuits are rejected, but when a judge accepts it they get some notority in the media.
- elnatro 2y ago
  “Abogados Cristianos” (conservative association) has the same reputation for the left-leaning than “El jueves” (far-left comedy publication) has for the right-leaning. Let’s be a bit objetive with our opinions. Edit: downvotes for telling the truth.
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  This doesn’t seem like it’s surprising considering the case or an issue at all without further information.
francasso 2y ago
While I understand the dad's pain, the amount of egoism required to put your wishes in front of your suffering daughter is unreal. If she is rationally able to make decisions and after talking with her family/loved ones and medical professionals she still wants to die, that decision should be respected. And the christians that think that their beliefs gives them any right to prolong the torture that other human beings are subject to... It's impolite to say what I would do to them.
- ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
  >If she is rationally able to make decisions That is what the father is contesting.
zigzag312 2y ago
I worry that because of things like [0] we we will start seeing guilt tripping old people into ending it sooner in order to not be a burden and to help their family. Also, if you think that being a full blown adult guarantees being able to make smart decisions, just look for who adults are voting for in many countries around the world. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213143
BrandoElFollito 2y ago
Her father is contesting the rationality of her decisions based on his very rational religious imaginary belief. What a world.

52 points by impish9208 2y ago

In Canada we call this MAID - medical assistance in dying. If you're undecided about this - ask a doctor or nurse about how they want to go. After watching my mom die of cancer, I'm glad that we have the option to go out on our own terms now.

billy99k 2y ago
[flagged]
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  >This is barbaric Any country without universal healthcare is barbaric. Absolutely perverse that you try to pin this on "socialized healthcare" when you herald a nation with a lifespan a half decade shorter, and worse outcomes in most categories of illnesses. I'm a huge critic of the overreach of MAiD in Canada, but the number of people who die from treatable illnesses is much higher in the US, so maybe you should retire the tired "socialized healthcare" canard.
- david-gpu 2y ago
  You are entitled to not want a dignified death for yourself. You are not entitled to take that right away from others.
llm_nerd 2y ago
"If you're undecided about this" As with many things, it's a very slippery slope and it is far more nuanced and not easily "decided". MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...). And of course we have expanded MAID to people suffering from mental illnesses, and it's something people are pursuing now because they can't afford rent. Oh and the government is recommending that MAiD be expanded to minors. And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp Yeah, this has pushed me from being roughly in favor of allowing it to considerable caution. It may or may not be OK for people to make the decision for themselves, but it absolutely is wrong to push people to it.
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    Don't overweight rare examples. This is basically the only one that I ever see brought up too because it was a fuck up. Plus it's not like there's any force to offering it.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      I fairly frequently encounter wildly incorrect statements made by public-facing roles. While this is the famous human-euthanasia-related headline example of "WTAF were they thinking?", I've got a few more of that ilk in various cases: • Doctors refusing abortions and the mother dying as a result, even though the law allowed abortion in such cases • The entire public discourse (shouting match) over the various covid vaccines, and of course the lockdowns — as HN has a broad audience, I should note that regardless of which group any reader of this message thinks was "right", both sides were very loudly convinced the other was risking lives, and that necessarily means that a lot of people were very loudly, very forcefully, wrong • The UK's DWP telling loads of people they were considered "fit for work" when they were gravely ill and died shortly after Outside of fatal cases, but still medical: • I've also noticed that almost every discussion where women share experiences of doctors, regardless of group size, there's women who report doctors ignoring evidence and these women having to solve their medical issues on their own • I've personally had a GP tell me something was impossible when it had actually happened — In my case, food ending up in nasal cavity, which was very easy for me to know had happened as the food exited about an hour later via a nostril, but the GP thought it was impossible • Unnecessary surgeries (and I don't mean purely cosmetic surgery) are a thing • Retained surgical instruments are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments Between unfeeling bureaucracies and emotional but flawed humans, there's a lot of room for people to end up pressured into unwanted euthanasia. Figuring out how to minimise suffering given all that? Well, even without that it would be beyond me. But it does make it harder.
Symmetry 2y ago
Of if you you don't want to trudge out to a hospital but are happy with written things by a doctor or quoting them: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-die.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-di... https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
jsbisviewtiful 2y ago
Just had a family member die after many years of descent into dementia. Absolutely don't want that for myself and would love the ejector seat as an option. Unfortunately the US is on an intellectual backslide, so hopefully in a few decades when I may also be susceptible something has changed and I will be allowed to do what I want with my own body and life.

inetknght 2y ago

Whether you're for or against someone deciding for themselves when to end their lives; whether you're for or against someone deciding to end their suffering; you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist. Botched suicides end up with way more suffering for all parties involved.

btilly 2y ago
The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. The vast majority of medically assisted suicide attempts end with a dead person. Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.
- russdill 2y ago
  "The 23-year-old woman who wants to end her life is paraplegic due to injuries suffered when she tried to take her own life in 2022."
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    If her suicide was successfully stopped this wouldn’t have happened. Now she’s trying to suicide again.
  - btilly 2y ago
    The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, that can happen. That's not what happens most of the time.
    - philipwhiuk 2y ago
      Uncited statements isn't data either.
      - btilly 2y ago
        If you doubt the statement, you can go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt to verify it. Or you could accept that someone who has been through this, might have done some research.

KittenInABox 2y ago

This grosses me out a little, especially because the daughter is well into adulthood. Would this extend to being able to control if the daughter wants to do other things, like get medical procedures (fertility treatments? surgery to remove uterus etc)? Editing to add: I think there's confusion in that I'm claiming fertility treatment is the same as suicide. I'm saying the logic the father is using makes no distinction that suicide is somehow special in this regard: his only justification is that she "has a personality disorder" and therefore shouldn't be allowed to make her own decisions with the medical authorities, because the father is deciding it is harmful to her. This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make.

ninetyninenine 2y ago
I don’t think you’re empathetic enough to see the situation from the father’s perspective. You’re just seeing from your perspective where your father is controlling you. Do you have kids or a boyfriend or a husband? Someone you love the most. Imagine them taking a gun and putting a bullet into their own brain. That’s equivalent to what the father is trying to stop from his perspective. What is happening here is on a whole different scale then fertility treatments. There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. There is no turning back from self slaughter. And there is always potential to change their mind. Additionally the fathers claim that the suicidal tendency is from a personality disorder is not out of this world. The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  > There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets. > The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end. Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example.

rtkwe 2y ago

I feel for the dad but it really seems like a case he shouldn't even have standing to bring. The daughter is a full blown 23 year old adult, unless she's been adjudicated as incompetent to make her own decisions and he has a guardianship of some sort she should be fully autonomous.

dylan604 2y ago
I know by law a 23 year old is considered an adult, but full blown seems to be hyperbolic.
- haunter 2y ago
  Founding fathers age on July 4, 1776: James Monroe, 18 Aaron Burr, 20 Alexander Hamilton, 21 James Madison, 25
  - arkey 2y ago
    Which shows pretty well how things have changed. People grew up earlier, before. Now, so many people at 30 years old are still children.
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
  How old is 'full blown' in your view then? 30? 40? 50?
- david-gpu 2y ago
  Being old enough to go to war means being old enough to make life altering decisions by herself.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    It is pretty well accepted that the human brain does not fully mature until mid-20s. So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult.

webstrand 2y ago

That's incredibly shortsighted if the court accepts the argument that she changed her mind a number of times. This only encourages people, who might change the minds and opt not to die, to stand by their decision even if uncertain or the court will rip away their choice.

mofeing 2y ago

The lawyer team of the father, "Abogados Cristianos", have a bad reputation here in Spain for suing everything they can that it's "not-conservative": from women trying to abort to comedians due to some joke. Most of their lawsuits are rejected, but when a judge accepts it they get some notority in the media.

elnatro 2y ago
“Abogados Cristianos” (conservative association) has the same reputation for the left-leaning than “El jueves” (far-left comedy publication) has for the right-leaning. Let’s be a bit objetive with our opinions. Edit: downvotes for telling the truth.
DiggyJohnson 2y ago
This doesn’t seem like it’s surprising considering the case or an issue at all without further information.

francasso 2y ago

While I understand the dad's pain, the amount of egoism required to put your wishes in front of your suffering daughter is unreal. If she is rationally able to make decisions and after talking with her family/loved ones and medical professionals she still wants to die, that decision should be respected. And the christians that think that their beliefs gives them any right to prolong the torture that other human beings are subject to... It's impolite to say what I would do to them.

ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
>If she is rationally able to make decisions That is what the father is contesting.

zigzag312 2y ago

I worry that because of things like [0] we we will start seeing guilt tripping old people into ending it sooner in order to not be a burden and to help their family. Also, if you think that being a full blown adult guarantees being able to make smart decisions, just look for who adults are voting for in many countries around the world. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213143

BrandoElFollito 2y ago

Her father is contesting the rationality of her decisions based on his very rational religious imaginary belief. What a world.