5 ms·

The good about democracy is that everyone can vote, and the bad about democracy is that everyone can vote. Hence the need of proper education and unfiltered inf

The good about democracy is that everyone can vote, and the bad about democracy is that everyone can vote. Hence the need of proper education and unfiltered information, the first helping to digest and understand the second in order to know who you vote and why; if you tamper with those, you can have people vote for anyone, including a dictator. Voting is a right, doing it knowledgeably is a duty, and so many people forget about the 2nd.

kennysoona 2y ago
> the bad about democracy is that everyone can vote. This is what needs to change. Recently there was a story that Reese Witherspoon was in a jury, and the other jury members thought she was a real lawyer because of Legally Blonde. These people are not qualified to serve on a jury let alone vote. Why are we getting input from people that couldn't run a small low traffic corner store on how to run a country? It's ridiculous, and it's the reason the US is in the mess it is now.
- _mitterpach 2y ago
  I agree that many people are not.. well intelectually suited for voting and making important decisions. But how do you decide who votes? The fairest is obviously to allow voting for everyone. As soon as you try to single out 'unsuitable' people, you run into a problems of how you would do so? You could try to give people a basic test, but these 'literacy' tests were historically used to supress all kinds of minorities. That is the true problem of democracy, it sucks, but everything else is miles worse. The people voted, the people get what they voted for. If you want a different result, convince people to vote differently.
  - beretguy 2y ago
    Need to ban propaganda that benefits our enemies on social media, news, etc.
  - kennysoona 2y ago
    > You could try to give people a basic test, but these 'literacy' tests were historically used to supress all kinds of minorities. That doesn't mean they would b e used to oppress minorities today. Except the minority that is deemed too ignorant to be granted a right to vote based on failing the test. > That is the true problem of democracy, it sucks, but everything else is miles worse. I don't think that's true, it's just that there is little motivation to come up with better alternative and people who try just get shit on for even trying as though it were an insurmountable goal.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Have you not looked around lately? In some places, of course it would be used to oppress minorities. In other places, it would likely be used to oppress some other majority faction.
      - kennysoona 2y ago
        > In some places, of course it would be used to oppress minorities. Not if the test and infrastructure for administering it is designed well to be resistant to this type of abuse, which it's possible to do.
        Jcowell 2y ago
        Sure, but who, what body, would be established to do this and who would give the power to do so? With what oversight and with what enforcement?
        kennysoona 2y ago
        With the current partisan deadlock, yeah, it would be kind of impossible to get anything passed. Ideally though the answer would be an independent, transparent body relying on solid research and making it's reasoning public and foolproof. Ideally, the goal would be not for people to resent not passing thee test and being unable to vote, but being motivated to better themselves until they are able to vote.
  - addandsubtract 2y ago
    You introduce weighted votes. Your vote carries more weight, the higher educated you are and the younger you are. This could be as simple as adding (85-age)/100 points to a vote for age, and GPA(or higher education = 5)/5 as a bonus for intelligence.
    - mdp2021 2y ago
      Then, as duly, you ask "what is under scrutiny and test wrong with the draft proposal, and fix and improve, iteratively"... There are a number of clear weaknesses in the above post already. Repeat: there is a whole academic discipline about optimal voting. But it must become a real concern...
      - kennysoona 2y ago
        > There are a number of clear weaknesses in the above post already. You mean my post? I'd say the weakness in what I propose are no where near as bad as the weaknesses in the system we currently have. > there is a whole academic discipline about optimal voting. And I would never discard that or the results of the relevant research, but I genuinely think the system we have in place is too flawed, to fundamentally broken, to really make progress or fix things. Half the country literally considered anything from any legitimate source that clashes with their beliefs as 'fake news'. How does academia suggest this problem should be addressed?
        mdp2021 2y ago
        > You mean my post No, I meant that about «weighted votes» with heavily imperfect criteria for the weighing. > no where near as bad Never an excuse for skipping due diligence. > suggest I suggest the problem is taken into serious consideration, because already looking at phenomena like gerrymandering is astonishing, and anti-intellectualism is abasing on both sides (of the failed and the failing), etc. There are leaking faucets: stop ignoring them, plan and fix them. That means, find solutions, propose them, convince the public, have them implemented.
        2y ago
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    There exists a whole discipline in political science and mathematics about optimality in decisional workflows. So: you advance the discipline as a priority, then you reform states. > The fairest [would be] obviously to allow voting for everyone Certainly not, you are playing on a shade of meaning of "obvious" (i.e. "apparent"): that is strongly unfair to the gifted, cultivated etc. - it is unfair in terms of merit. And it is unfair to those who want an optimal system at their residence, etc.
nonrandomstring 2y ago
Horace Mann is a really important historical figure. He founded the US school system for the reasons you mention. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann

kennysoona 2y ago

> the bad about democracy is that everyone can vote. This is what needs to change. Recently there was a story that Reese Witherspoon was in a jury, and the other jury members thought she was a real lawyer because of Legally Blonde. These people are not qualified to serve on a jury let alone vote. Why are we getting input from people that couldn't run a small low traffic corner store on how to run a country? It's ridiculous, and it's the reason the US is in the mess it is now.

_mitterpach 2y ago
I agree that many people are not.. well intelectually suited for voting and making important decisions. But how do you decide who votes? The fairest is obviously to allow voting for everyone. As soon as you try to single out 'unsuitable' people, you run into a problems of how you would do so? You could try to give people a basic test, but these 'literacy' tests were historically used to supress all kinds of minorities. That is the true problem of democracy, it sucks, but everything else is miles worse. The people voted, the people get what they voted for. If you want a different result, convince people to vote differently.
- beretguy 2y ago
  Need to ban propaganda that benefits our enemies on social media, news, etc.
- kennysoona 2y ago
  > You could try to give people a basic test, but these 'literacy' tests were historically used to supress all kinds of minorities. That doesn't mean they would b e used to oppress minorities today. Except the minority that is deemed too ignorant to be granted a right to vote based on failing the test. > That is the true problem of democracy, it sucks, but everything else is miles worse. I don't think that's true, it's just that there is little motivation to come up with better alternative and people who try just get shit on for even trying as though it were an insurmountable goal.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Have you not looked around lately? In some places, of course it would be used to oppress minorities. In other places, it would likely be used to oppress some other majority faction.
    - kennysoona 2y ago
      > In some places, of course it would be used to oppress minorities. Not if the test and infrastructure for administering it is designed well to be resistant to this type of abuse, which it's possible to do.
      - Jcowell 2y ago
        Sure, but who, what body, would be established to do this and who would give the power to do so? With what oversight and with what enforcement?
        kennysoona 2y ago
        With the current partisan deadlock, yeah, it would be kind of impossible to get anything passed. Ideally though the answer would be an independent, transparent body relying on solid research and making it's reasoning public and foolproof. Ideally, the goal would be not for people to resent not passing thee test and being unable to vote, but being motivated to better themselves until they are able to vote.
- addandsubtract 2y ago
  You introduce weighted votes. Your vote carries more weight, the higher educated you are and the younger you are. This could be as simple as adding (85-age)/100 points to a vote for age, and GPA(or higher education = 5)/5 as a bonus for intelligence.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    Then, as duly, you ask "what is under scrutiny and test wrong with the draft proposal, and fix and improve, iteratively"... There are a number of clear weaknesses in the above post already. Repeat: there is a whole academic discipline about optimal voting. But it must become a real concern...
    - kennysoona 2y ago
      > There are a number of clear weaknesses in the above post already. You mean my post? I'd say the weakness in what I propose are no where near as bad as the weaknesses in the system we currently have. > there is a whole academic discipline about optimal voting. And I would never discard that or the results of the relevant research, but I genuinely think the system we have in place is too flawed, to fundamentally broken, to really make progress or fix things. Half the country literally considered anything from any legitimate source that clashes with their beliefs as 'fake news'. How does academia suggest this problem should be addressed?
      - mdp2021 2y ago
        > You mean my post No, I meant that about «weighted votes» with heavily imperfect criteria for the weighing. > no where near as bad Never an excuse for skipping due diligence. > suggest I suggest the problem is taken into serious consideration, because already looking at phenomena like gerrymandering is astonishing, and anti-intellectualism is abasing on both sides (of the failed and the failing), etc. There are leaking faucets: stop ignoring them, plan and fix them. That means, find solutions, propose them, convince the public, have them implemented.
        2y ago
- mdp2021 2y ago
  There exists a whole discipline in political science and mathematics about optimality in decisional workflows. So: you advance the discipline as a priority, then you reform states. > The fairest [would be] obviously to allow voting for everyone Certainly not, you are playing on a shade of meaning of "obvious" (i.e. "apparent"): that is strongly unfair to the gifted, cultivated etc. - it is unfair in terms of merit. And it is unfair to those who want an optimal system at their residence, etc.

nonrandomstring 2y ago

Horace Mann is a really important historical figure. He founded the US school system for the reasons you mention. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann