8 ms·

Ukraine has retained its independence. That's a big achievement on its own.

ty6853 2y ago
If they are independent then they won't need to rely on being propped up by American taxpayers to survive. Because if they did, they'd be dependent not independent.
- bwb 2y ago
  With that logic, any country too small to fight its neighbors should be taken over, their citizens killed, their women defiled. What planet are you from? Would you like to live in a world where the strong can do anything they want? Or do you want to live in a world of laws, where alliances protect groups of countries who want to provide their citizens with safety, economic prosperity, etc.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - DecoySalamander 2y ago
      This argument makes no sense - you have never been asked to pay a special "Kurdish" tax, or a special "Ukrainian" tax. You will still pay the same amount (or more) of taxes even if the US becomes completely isolationist.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        Unless the cost is zero the tax is paid, either directly, by inflation, or one of the two later to settle the debt. The fungibility of money means no special separate tax is assessed. Even under fiction I have seen claimed that these are all surplus old arms, the US left them in Afghanistan last time precisely because logistics alone is expensive.
        ModernMech 2y ago
        You can just pretend 100% of your tax dollars goes to services you use then. For those of us who want to support Ukraine, why can't we choose to spend our tax dollars on that? I understand you personally don't want to spend on those things, but in our system our representatives voted to send that aid. It's not Trump's to withhold.
        ty6853 2y ago
        >. For those of us who want to support Ukraine, why can't we choose to spend our tax dollars on that? This is what I'm proposing. Eliminate aid, that filters back into Americans not being forced to pay for it. Those who want to can use their savings to donate or fly over and fight.
        ModernMech 2y ago
        In our system what we do to allocate spending is elect representatives who vote on things. If we go down your path, you’ll find people who don’t want to fund your government services. If they get their way you’ll be salty. If you REALLY want to go there, then my blue state taxes should not go to red states.
        ty6853 2y ago
        I will not be salty. For reference, I have no police service, no fire service, no public roads where I live. Road access for miles and miles are private easements which works without taxes -- I first built my road with an axe and a shovel with no government assistance. I have privately drilled water, a privately made sewer, and private electric for which I personally funded the power poles. I pay for private education for my children, on top of taxes for public school. Any remaining scraps of public services you might claim I get, I assure you it would be cheaper for me to buy privately than pay ~30% of my income as I do now in tax. I don't want your tax money or services. You have a deal.
        2y ago
    - levanten 2y ago
      I admire that you put yourself in dangers way for what you think was right. However it is really disingenuous to try frame a global conflict between super powers in terms of personal responsibility. Your prescription is in the same vein as saying those worried about climate change should recycle more, when it is clear their utmost efforts would not make a dent in the global scheme of things. As such, no amount of motivated militia is going to make a dent in a war against an industrialized military. Just come out and say I don't want to pay for to support Ukraine's war against Russia. Your opinion is valid and should be taken into account. However you don't get to dodge your responsibilities if the outcome doesn't go your way, just like a Democrat has to live with Trump's policies whether they like it or not. It's pathetic to try garnering sympathy with cage analogies.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        It's not an analogy, it is a direct fact. Willfully underpayment of taxes can be punished with being tossed in a cage, enforced by armed agents. This should be first, front, and center concern before that gun is pointed at Americans trying to get by. >However it is really disingenuous to try frame a global conflict between super powers in terms of personal responsibility Awesome, then I have no personal responsibility to fund it. We're all happy then.
    - gizajob 2y ago
      You’re cool with the IRS cage if the money is going to Israel though?
      - ty6853 2y ago
        Definitely not
    - bwb 2y ago
      Btw, that is a common misconception that is debunked (a common tool politicians use to fear monger and I hope this helps you not fall for it): https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-irs-armed/fact-check-the-irs-is-not-hiring-thousands-of-armed-agents-job-ads-show-opening-for-specialized-unit-idUSL1N2ZT296/ https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-irs-armed/fact-che... Taxes fund civilization and the world we've built. The IRS collects a percentage of our money to build roads and infrastructure, defend our nation's interests, provide income in retirement, provide health care, and so much more good stuff. Part of that is ensuring that the world is stable so that our nation doesn't have to go to war. We do that with alliances, investment in military force, investment in diplomacy, and investment in building economic opportunity globally so people don't turn to violence. It doesn't always work; no system is perfect. But Ukraine is the perfect example of a democratic nation that has been invaded by a dictatorship and needs our support. They have already destroyed most of the Russian army and economy with our support, and we need to finish the job. If we don't give them the resources to finish the job, it is just a matter of when the next dictator does similar, and we are forced to send our people to fight. Do you want to go fight in Tawain? Do you want to find in Estonia? History has shown us that isolationism doesn't work, nor does giving into naked aggression from dictators and autocrats.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        [flagged]
        bwb 2y ago
        That is why your kids will eventually fight in World War 3, because you won't invest in a system to establish real peace globally by standing up to dictators who invade other countries. It is not illegitimate in any way, and I think you are making a bad-faith argument. American stands strong with Ukraine. The only Americans who have left the chat are those who were never American to begin with.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        2y ago
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      The US and Europe doesn't send them arms because they're a "proud independent people." The arms deals are to maintain international order, that no country should invade and annex another. If you just allow that to happen, everybody will be worse off. That's why there is so much resistance to paying for Israel to annex Gaza and so much support for Ukraine to fight off Russia.
rurban 2y ago
Not under these circumstances, inviting Russia to try again capturing Kyev. Also NATO is dead now. So why should they stop at the Ukranian border.
jesterson 2y ago
lol, the country is in shambles, it's completely dependent on external financing and military assistance, let alone If you call that independence, I wouldn't want one for my country.
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  What state would it have been in wit assistance? Would you be happy with that situation in your country?

If they are independent then they won't need to rely on being propped up by American taxpayers to survive. Because if they did, they'd be dependent not independent.

bwb 2y ago
With that logic, any country too small to fight its neighbors should be taken over, their citizens killed, their women defiled. What planet are you from? Would you like to live in a world where the strong can do anything they want? Or do you want to live in a world of laws, where alliances protect groups of countries who want to provide their citizens with safety, economic prosperity, etc.
- ty6853 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - DecoySalamander 2y ago
    This argument makes no sense - you have never been asked to pay a special "Kurdish" tax, or a special "Ukrainian" tax. You will still pay the same amount (or more) of taxes even if the US becomes completely isolationist.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      Unless the cost is zero the tax is paid, either directly, by inflation, or one of the two later to settle the debt. The fungibility of money means no special separate tax is assessed. Even under fiction I have seen claimed that these are all surplus old arms, the US left them in Afghanistan last time precisely because logistics alone is expensive.
      - ModernMech 2y ago
        You can just pretend 100% of your tax dollars goes to services you use then. For those of us who want to support Ukraine, why can't we choose to spend our tax dollars on that? I understand you personally don't want to spend on those things, but in our system our representatives voted to send that aid. It's not Trump's to withhold.
        ty6853 2y ago
        >. For those of us who want to support Ukraine, why can't we choose to spend our tax dollars on that? This is what I'm proposing. Eliminate aid, that filters back into Americans not being forced to pay for it. Those who want to can use their savings to donate or fly over and fight.
        ModernMech 2y ago
        In our system what we do to allocate spending is elect representatives who vote on things. If we go down your path, you’ll find people who don’t want to fund your government services. If they get their way you’ll be salty. If you REALLY want to go there, then my blue state taxes should not go to red states.
        ty6853 2y ago
        I will not be salty. For reference, I have no police service, no fire service, no public roads where I live. Road access for miles and miles are private easements which works without taxes -- I first built my road with an axe and a shovel with no government assistance. I have privately drilled water, a privately made sewer, and private electric for which I personally funded the power poles. I pay for private education for my children, on top of taxes for public school. Any remaining scraps of public services you might claim I get, I assure you it would be cheaper for me to buy privately than pay ~30% of my income as I do now in tax. I don't want your tax money or services. You have a deal.
        2y ago
  - levanten 2y ago
    I admire that you put yourself in dangers way for what you think was right. However it is really disingenuous to try frame a global conflict between super powers in terms of personal responsibility. Your prescription is in the same vein as saying those worried about climate change should recycle more, when it is clear their utmost efforts would not make a dent in the global scheme of things. As such, no amount of motivated militia is going to make a dent in a war against an industrialized military. Just come out and say I don't want to pay for to support Ukraine's war against Russia. Your opinion is valid and should be taken into account. However you don't get to dodge your responsibilities if the outcome doesn't go your way, just like a Democrat has to live with Trump's policies whether they like it or not. It's pathetic to try garnering sympathy with cage analogies.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      It's not an analogy, it is a direct fact. Willfully underpayment of taxes can be punished with being tossed in a cage, enforced by armed agents. This should be first, front, and center concern before that gun is pointed at Americans trying to get by. >However it is really disingenuous to try frame a global conflict between super powers in terms of personal responsibility Awesome, then I have no personal responsibility to fund it. We're all happy then.
  - gizajob 2y ago
    You’re cool with the IRS cage if the money is going to Israel though?
    - ty6853 2y ago
      Definitely not
  - bwb 2y ago
    Btw, that is a common misconception that is debunked (a common tool politicians use to fear monger and I hope this helps you not fall for it): https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-irs-armed/fact-check-the-irs-is-not-hiring-thousands-of-armed-agents-job-ads-show-opening-for-specialized-unit-idUSL1N2ZT296/ https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-irs-armed/fact-che... Taxes fund civilization and the world we've built. The IRS collects a percentage of our money to build roads and infrastructure, defend our nation's interests, provide income in retirement, provide health care, and so much more good stuff. Part of that is ensuring that the world is stable so that our nation doesn't have to go to war. We do that with alliances, investment in military force, investment in diplomacy, and investment in building economic opportunity globally so people don't turn to violence. It doesn't always work; no system is perfect. But Ukraine is the perfect example of a democratic nation that has been invaded by a dictatorship and needs our support. They have already destroyed most of the Russian army and economy with our support, and we need to finish the job. If we don't give them the resources to finish the job, it is just a matter of when the next dictator does similar, and we are forced to send our people to fight. Do you want to go fight in Tawain? Do you want to find in Estonia? History has shown us that isolationism doesn't work, nor does giving into naked aggression from dictators and autocrats.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - bwb 2y ago
        That is why your kids will eventually fight in World War 3, because you won't invest in a system to establish real peace globally by standing up to dictators who invade other countries. It is not illegitimate in any way, and I think you are making a bad-faith argument. American stands strong with Ukraine. The only Americans who have left the chat are those who were never American to begin with.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        2y ago
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    The US and Europe doesn't send them arms because they're a "proud independent people." The arms deals are to maintain international order, that no country should invade and annex another. If you just allow that to happen, everybody will be worse off. That's why there is so much resistance to paying for Israel to annex Gaza and so much support for Ukraine to fight off Russia.

rurban 2y ago

Not under these circumstances, inviting Russia to try again capturing Kyev. Also NATO is dead now. So why should they stop at the Ukranian border.

jesterson 2y ago

lol, the country is in shambles, it's completely dependent on external financing and military assistance, let alone If you call that independence, I wouldn't want one for my country.

AlecSchueler 2y ago
What state would it have been in wit assistance? Would you be happy with that situation in your country?