29 ms·

True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty m

True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty much only from Dune. Unless they were mining oregano or something.

defrost 2y ago
The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  > The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."
  - defrost 2y ago
    The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein. Others might disagree. English is a fun language. What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies. Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries. Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold. It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      However, using the word "literally" is a poor choice. "Figuratively" would be better, or even just leave out "literally" and allow "mining" to be interpreted by the reader.
      - defrost 2y ago
        It was deliberate choice in a sub thread that's literally about literary metaphors. As a native english reader, writer and speaker of some six decades I grasp the tension in the use of ' literally "airquoted" ' and embrace it. I also enjoy Riddley Walker, the first edition of Clockwork Orange (sans lexicographic annexure), and the outrageously provocative shock value of the opening sentence of Burgess's panoramic saga Earthly Powers. Your opinion is noted and respected.
        ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        > I grasp the tension in the use of ' literally "airquoted" ' and embrace it I can appreciate that and hope that I added to the tension.
        defrost 2y ago
        Absolutely, I enjoyed making a comment that generated some push back and I enjoyed defending my considered choice. My only mild disappointment is that while I opened the door by airquoting "mining" and drawing attention to an actual nation scale spice industry no one made comment on the "spice mining" in both Dune and in the Spice mines of Kessel being both the harvesting of a seasonally produced organic bloom. In Dune the spice harvesters surface scooped fresh blooms as they appeared from active worms, on Kessel I believe (I'm no authority here) they harvested old buried organics using mineral mining techniques rather than fresh cropping from a surface source. EDIT: It appears the Kessel spice may have been a mineral? .. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Spice_mines_of_Kessel https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Spice_mines_of_Kessel TBH that's a rabbit hole of detail I'm happy to skirt.
  - kjs3 2y ago
    "Mine" can also imply "exploit".
- pepa65 2y ago
  Except that wasn't mining at all, except in a remotely metaphorical sense.
  - xxs 2y ago
    nowadays (past few decades) 'mine' (and farm) are often used in place of gather, esp. when it comes to game communities, e.g. 'mine' wood in 'warcraft III'. Farm any sort of materials, equipment, reputation, etc. So I suppose it's not that far fetched.
    - syockit 2y ago
      But definitely not in the parlance of late 70s when Star Wars premiered.
      - xxs 2y ago
        True, of course, however the spice mining in Star Wars refers to mining minerals and converting them to drugs. And of course, without any doubt both the mining and the spice have influence from Dune.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  Figuratively "mining" spice
- llm_trw 2y ago
  The wildest thing about European colonialism is that it was kicked off to get more spices for European food. Then in the worlds most bizarre twist European food gave up all spices a few centuries later and colonies had to invent something else to sell back to the colonial centre.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    "All the spices", save for tea, coffee, and sugar, which continued to be imported in quantity. And are addictive to boot. A century or so later, laudenum. The spice trade itself didn't shrink so much as it was subsumed by other trade, I think, particularly as shipping capacity, reliability, and safety increased.
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      Other than sugar none of those are spices used for food. And even sugar became much less commonly used to in Europe.
      - dredmorbius 2y ago
        My point being that 1) the UK continued to import luxury consumables and 2) probably maintained spice imports, though I don't have hard data. If you have data to bring to the discussion I'd be interested in seeing it. Sugar is included in what were termed spices, FWIW: In the medieval and early modern periods, ‘spice’ was a term liberally applied to all kinds of exotic natural products from pepper to sugar, herbs to animal secretions. <https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1777/the-spice-trade--the-age-of-exploration/ https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1777/the-spice-trade--t...> From the sources I'm finding (relatively few and vague, granted), my interpretation is less that total trade in spices (however construed) fell in absolute tonnage than that the per-tonne value dropped as the goods fell in price and were consumed by far greater shares of the population. It wasn't that spices were less a part of culinary culture, but that because they were so common (both senses of the word) they became less significant. Total tonnage and likely overall value were all but certainly increasing, but the importance attached to formerly exotic goods (pepper, ginger, cinnamon, etc.) fell as anybody could attain these. Look to the history of the pineapple (of which there were once temples built in its honor in Europe) from exotic to highly mundane fruit for another example: <https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-53432877 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-53432877>
- Angostura 2y ago
  Harvesting, perhaps. I’ve never heard it referred to as mining

defrost 2y ago

The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.

Terr_ 2y ago
> The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."
- defrost 2y ago
  The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein. Others might disagree. English is a fun language. What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies. Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries. Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold. It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    However, using the word "literally" is a poor choice. "Figuratively" would be better, or even just leave out "literally" and allow "mining" to be interpreted by the reader.
    - defrost 2y ago
      It was deliberate choice in a sub thread that's literally about literary metaphors. As a native english reader, writer and speaker of some six decades I grasp the tension in the use of ' literally "airquoted" ' and embrace it. I also enjoy Riddley Walker, the first edition of Clockwork Orange (sans lexicographic annexure), and the outrageously provocative shock value of the opening sentence of Burgess's panoramic saga Earthly Powers. Your opinion is noted and respected.
      - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        > I grasp the tension in the use of ' literally "airquoted" ' and embrace it I can appreciate that and hope that I added to the tension.
        defrost 2y ago
        Absolutely, I enjoyed making a comment that generated some push back and I enjoyed defending my considered choice. My only mild disappointment is that while I opened the door by airquoting "mining" and drawing attention to an actual nation scale spice industry no one made comment on the "spice mining" in both Dune and in the Spice mines of Kessel being both the harvesting of a seasonally produced organic bloom. In Dune the spice harvesters surface scooped fresh blooms as they appeared from active worms, on Kessel I believe (I'm no authority here) they harvested old buried organics using mineral mining techniques rather than fresh cropping from a surface source. EDIT: It appears the Kessel spice may have been a mineral? .. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Spice_mines_of_Kessel https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Spice_mines_of_Kessel TBH that's a rabbit hole of detail I'm happy to skirt.
- kjs3 2y ago
  "Mine" can also imply "exploit".
pepa65 2y ago
Except that wasn't mining at all, except in a remotely metaphorical sense.
- xxs 2y ago
  nowadays (past few decades) 'mine' (and farm) are often used in place of gather, esp. when it comes to game communities, e.g. 'mine' wood in 'warcraft III'. Farm any sort of materials, equipment, reputation, etc. So I suppose it's not that far fetched.
  - syockit 2y ago
    But definitely not in the parlance of late 70s when Star Wars premiered.
    - xxs 2y ago
      True, of course, however the spice mining in Star Wars refers to mining minerals and converting them to drugs. And of course, without any doubt both the mining and the spice have influence from Dune.
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
Figuratively "mining" spice
llm_trw 2y ago
The wildest thing about European colonialism is that it was kicked off to get more spices for European food. Then in the worlds most bizarre twist European food gave up all spices a few centuries later and colonies had to invent something else to sell back to the colonial centre.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  "All the spices", save for tea, coffee, and sugar, which continued to be imported in quantity. And are addictive to boot. A century or so later, laudenum. The spice trade itself didn't shrink so much as it was subsumed by other trade, I think, particularly as shipping capacity, reliability, and safety increased.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Other than sugar none of those are spices used for food. And even sugar became much less commonly used to in Europe.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      My point being that 1) the UK continued to import luxury consumables and 2) probably maintained spice imports, though I don't have hard data. If you have data to bring to the discussion I'd be interested in seeing it. Sugar is included in what were termed spices, FWIW: In the medieval and early modern periods, ‘spice’ was a term liberally applied to all kinds of exotic natural products from pepper to sugar, herbs to animal secretions. <https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1777/the-spice-trade--the-age-of-exploration/ https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1777/the-spice-trade--t...> From the sources I'm finding (relatively few and vague, granted), my interpretation is less that total trade in spices (however construed) fell in absolute tonnage than that the per-tonne value dropped as the goods fell in price and were consumed by far greater shares of the population. It wasn't that spices were less a part of culinary culture, but that because they were so common (both senses of the word) they became less significant. Total tonnage and likely overall value were all but certainly increasing, but the importance attached to formerly exotic goods (pepper, ginger, cinnamon, etc.) fell as anybody could attain these. Look to the history of the pineapple (of which there were once temples built in its honor in Europe) from exotic to highly mundane fruit for another example: <https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-53432877 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-53432877>
Angostura 2y ago
Harvesting, perhaps. I’ve never heard it referred to as mining