6 ms·

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivat

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

stevenwoo 2y ago
The first book I concur but the series goes in directions I would never have predicted in multiple places in later books, off the top of my head - books four and five stand out in memory, though he laid the groundwork in the first book.
- Talanes 2y ago
  Sure, but when was the last time anyone claimed a major franchise was ripping off God-Emperor?
ViktorRay 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... A tale as old as time
- UberFly 2y ago
  This is the final answer.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).
  - npodbielski 2y ago
    Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence. My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew. My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice. Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?
    - simiones 2y ago
      The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was definitely better than it had been under the Harkonnens, but this is not necessarily true across the empire. > Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? I think this is somewhat the general idea, but more specific. His main message is that charismatic leaders, even the ones with the best of intentions as Paul certainly was (and Leto II, though in a more complex way), are extremely dangerous and should not be trusted or followed. The empire overall would have been an unquestionably better place if Paul had been killed in the desert (except that perhaps the Bene Gesserit would have led people in an even worse direction if their plans had succeeded at the time). Arrakis itself would have been in a better shape if the fremen had risen up and overthrown their oppressors, but had otherwise stopped at that.
      - npodbielski 2y ago
        It may be because I have read this like 20 years ago but I remember something in a sense of accomplishment from Leto II when he was killed. Like: there is no way of stopping it now - the spread of humanity in the universe. So according to me first book was a bit dark: - Paul accomplishing his goal but failing ultimatively - per what you are saying - starting the jihad - In the second he is killed but we have his children - so again a bit dark but with hope. - In the third we have - making a new empire and change from desert to a green planet - so again hope for something better coming even if it is a but slow (god-emperor living for hundreds of years) - Then we have really two strange books but last one, at least last written by Herbert, ends with one character asking other one if the purpose of all those events is understood, and the second chacter realizes this purpose with kind of awe. So to me in overall Dune was a positive tale. according to you it is just grim sentence: do not fall for the words of false prophet. Imho if this would be just it, would be little sad. But maybe I should read them again maybe after so many years, the reception will be different.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
throwup238 2y ago
It’s even more stark the further back you go. When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood: shameless sequels and reboots. By far the most popular books were translations of Greek classics and rote derivatives of the Arthurian legends. It wasn’t until the first iterations of copyright and a few other cultural shifts that a “professional” writer class was born and started to expand on the creativity of our stories. Until then publishing wasn’t profitable enough to support a real creative process, so they cribbed as much from existing canon as they could to make ends meet. See how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form, for example.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  That's the third major use of the printing press. The first was for catholic indulgences. The second was for religious propaganda during the European wars of religion.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  > When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood It ushered in massive creativity! The early printshops were innovation hot-beds and quickly developed textual things that had never existed at scale before, like dictionaries, newspapers, political cartoons, encyclopaedia, technical drawings / manuals lacking copy errors, local maps, etc.
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  > how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form How long do you think that took? There's a wide range of possible dates for each endpoint, but I don't think it reaches a century.
jhbadger 2y ago
True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty much only from Dune. Unless they were mining oregano or something.
- defrost 2y ago
  The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    > The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."
    - defrost 2y ago
      The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein. Others might disagree. English is a fun language. What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies. Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries. Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold. It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.
      - 2y ago
RobRivera 2y ago
It's derivation all the way down. That's what renewed my passion for reading; revisiting texts with contexts in mind, history, intent, etc. I feel the education system really fails people with these little bits
cs02rm0 2y ago
On Star Wars and derivations... Bertram Thomas' Arabia Felix, about his crossing of the Empty Quarter, listed some names of stars, transliterated from the arabic. The north star, was written as Al Jedi... the Jedi. It goes a step further, in that it's arabic which translates as the kid (as in a goat, but the same way Hans refers to Luke). I'm not sure how much is coincidence, but reading about Thomas preparing to travel by starlight, it struck me as being remarkably reminiscent. I guess there are no original stories.
lupusreal 2y ago
All creative work is derivative.
BobbyTables2 2y ago
I had friends that raved about Dune. Think they actually read the book. Later saw the movie and kept thinking there would be a twist. Was largely disappointed but the mother starting a holy war was a bit intriguing.
- 392 2y ago
  Keep watching the movies, you will love the next one :-)
lazystar 2y ago
adding to this... Avatar is often thought of as unique, but it's a blatant copy paste of Timothy Zahn's "Manta's Gift" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift
- pitaj 2y ago
  Avatar the movie franchise? The most common thing you'll hear people say about it is that it's "Pocahontas in space".

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

stevenwoo 2y ago

The first book I concur but the series goes in directions I would never have predicted in multiple places in later books, off the top of my head - books four and five stand out in memory, though he laid the groundwork in the first book.

Talanes 2y ago
Sure, but when was the last time anyone claimed a major franchise was ripping off God-Emperor?

ViktorRay 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... A tale as old as time

UberFly 2y ago
This is the final answer.
tsimionescu 2y ago
This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).
- npodbielski 2y ago
  Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence. My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew. My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice. Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?
  - simiones 2y ago
    The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was definitely better than it had been under the Harkonnens, but this is not necessarily true across the empire. > Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? I think this is somewhat the general idea, but more specific. His main message is that charismatic leaders, even the ones with the best of intentions as Paul certainly was (and Leto II, though in a more complex way), are extremely dangerous and should not be trusted or followed. The empire overall would have been an unquestionably better place if Paul had been killed in the desert (except that perhaps the Bene Gesserit would have led people in an even worse direction if their plans had succeeded at the time). Arrakis itself would have been in a better shape if the fremen had risen up and overthrown their oppressors, but had otherwise stopped at that.
    - npodbielski 2y ago
      It may be because I have read this like 20 years ago but I remember something in a sense of accomplishment from Leto II when he was killed. Like: there is no way of stopping it now - the spread of humanity in the universe. So according to me first book was a bit dark: - Paul accomplishing his goal but failing ultimatively - per what you are saying - starting the jihad - In the second he is killed but we have his children - so again a bit dark but with hope. - In the third we have - making a new empire and change from desert to a green planet - so again hope for something better coming even if it is a but slow (god-emperor living for hundreds of years) - Then we have really two strange books but last one, at least last written by Herbert, ends with one character asking other one if the purpose of all those events is understood, and the second chacter realizes this purpose with kind of awe. So to me in overall Dune was a positive tale. according to you it is just grim sentence: do not fall for the words of false prophet. Imho if this would be just it, would be little sad. But maybe I should read them again maybe after so many years, the reception will be different.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

throwup238 2y ago

It’s even more stark the further back you go. When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood: shameless sequels and reboots. By far the most popular books were translations of Greek classics and rote derivatives of the Arthurian legends. It wasn’t until the first iterations of copyright and a few other cultural shifts that a “professional” writer class was born and started to expand on the creativity of our stories. Until then publishing wasn’t profitable enough to support a real creative process, so they cribbed as much from existing canon as they could to make ends meet. See how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form, for example.

llm_trw 2y ago
That's the third major use of the printing press. The first was for catholic indulgences. The second was for religious propaganda during the European wars of religion.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
KineticLensman 2y ago
> When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood It ushered in massive creativity! The early printshops were innovation hot-beds and quickly developed textual things that had never existed at scale before, like dictionaries, newspapers, political cartoons, encyclopaedia, technical drawings / manuals lacking copy errors, local maps, etc.
andrewflnr 2y ago
> how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form How long do you think that took? There's a wide range of possible dates for each endpoint, but I don't think it reaches a century.

jhbadger 2y ago

True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty much only from Dune. Unless they were mining oregano or something.

defrost 2y ago
The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  > The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."
  - defrost 2y ago
    The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein. Others might disagree. English is a fun language. What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies. Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries. Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold. It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.
    - 2y ago

RobRivera 2y ago

It's derivation all the way down. That's what renewed my passion for reading; revisiting texts with contexts in mind, history, intent, etc. I feel the education system really fails people with these little bits

cs02rm0 2y ago

On Star Wars and derivations... Bertram Thomas' Arabia Felix, about his crossing of the Empty Quarter, listed some names of stars, transliterated from the arabic. The north star, was written as Al Jedi... the Jedi. It goes a step further, in that it's arabic which translates as the kid (as in a goat, but the same way Hans refers to Luke). I'm not sure how much is coincidence, but reading about Thomas preparing to travel by starlight, it struck me as being remarkably reminiscent. I guess there are no original stories.

lupusreal 2y ago

All creative work is derivative.

BobbyTables2 2y ago

I had friends that raved about Dune. Think they actually read the book. Later saw the movie and kept thinking there would be a twist. Was largely disappointed but the mother starting a holy war was a bit intriguing.

392 2y ago
Keep watching the movies, you will love the next one :-)

lazystar 2y ago

adding to this... Avatar is often thought of as unique, but it's a blatant copy paste of Timothy Zahn's "Manta's Gift" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift

pitaj 2y ago
Avatar the movie franchise? The most common thing you'll hear people say about it is that it's "Pocahontas in space".