3 ms·

Windows is great. Windows laptops are universally garbage.

by forrestthewoods 2y ago

dismalaf 2y ago
They become a lot better when you install Linux.
- forrestthewoods 2y ago
  As someone who makes video games in C++ I’m going to have to disrespectfully disagree. But I will admit that SteamDeck is great. It’s deeply ironic that the best API for Linux gaming is Win32.
  - dismalaf 2y ago
    So what's actually better about Windows? Other than the fact some legacy software still runs on it... Because for developing, say, financial apps in C++, Linux is much, much better IMO.
    - forrestthewoods 2y ago
      Better profilers (Superluminal). Better debuggers (Visual Studio). Linux package managers are an abomination and a failed model. As evidenced by Docker being required both to reliable build and reliably run modern software. glibc is an abomination of bad design ideas from the 80s. Compilers relying on whatever random ass version of a .so you have is broken AF. The fact that you can’t target an arbitrarily version of glibc or runtime environment is an embarrassment. Once upon a time I shipped a popular-ish game with Linux support. 1% of Linux users represented 50% of bug reports. And no it’s not because Linux players were more reliable at reporting Linux issues. It has been a few years, but supporting more than SteamDeck is likely similar. At least for non-proton builds.
      - genewitch 2y ago
        I like Portage when it works. When it doesn't, I don't like portage very much. I'm not sure if you can "alternatives" glibc in Gentoo, but the "whatever .so you have" isn't a thing there, you can slot different versions if you need to. If I want to test some software I'll use Ubuntu with docker or whatever, but to deploy to production I will make it run on Gentoo. Hell or high water. Windows software still ships every .dll it needs, unless it is a Microsoft one. Do a search for msvc.dll or whatever sometime and marvel at the pagination.
        forrestthewoods 2y ago
        > Windows software still ships every .dll it needs This is the correct thing to do
      - dismalaf 2y ago
        > Better profilers (Superluminal). Better debuggers (Visual Studio). That's not a platform issue, that's a "these companies simply don't ship Linux versions". > Linux package managers are an abomination and a failed model. Ironic then that some Windows tools (Chocolatey) model them and Windows has WSL because tons of devs find that model easier. > As evidenced by Docker being required both to reliable build and reliably run modern software. Docker doesn't do away with that model, it just allows you to isolate specific versions of libraries and tools you need in a namespace/container. The standard model for shipping Windows software is to ship all the libraries needed with the software. Which isn't much different than what Docker is doing. > glibc is an abomination of bad design ideas from the 80s. Compilers relying on whatever random ass version of a .so you have is broken AF. The fact that you can’t target an arbitrarily version of glibc or runtime environment is an embarrassment. Maybe it's a bad model, can't speak to that. But you can statically link a C/C++ runtime with your software if you want, or ship alternative glibc versions. Also, if we're talking about shipping games on Steam, you can simply target the Steam runtime. It'll work on Steam deck + any Linux system.
      - seec 2y ago
        I am so glad that I'm not the only one thinking package managers are complete nonsense. Even on macOS I have always found Homebrew or MacPorts to be rather dumb (at least the latter is saner in some ways). Package managers have so many fundamental problems it's hard to even get started. But they appeal to the Linux type of person because it's a very communist type approach to things, authoritarian and panopticon like way. At least nowadays they are trying to allow installing software in some more convenient way but I'm not holding my breath considering there are competing implementations.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
    Games are the one thing that’s much better in Windows. But then the best way to play them is to run Linux with whatever compatibility layer. Not to actually run windows.
    - forrestthewoods 2y ago
      If Linux is the best way to run games then why does Linux have a mere 1.45% user share on Steam? And I believe that includes SteamDeck.
      - dismalaf 2y ago
        Better doesn't always win. Steam Deck has also still sold millions.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      Unless you happen to play one of the many games with "anti-cheat", which doesn't work on Proton.
- int_19h 2y ago
  Well, except for battery life. Hardware support also varies from laptop to laptop. If you want one to run Linux without a hassle, you have to shop around for that specifically.
CamperBob2 2y ago
What? The only 'great' Windows since 7 is LTSC.
- forrestthewoods 2y ago
  Win10/Win11 with O&O Shutup are perfectly fine. https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    Does shutup10 allow you to decide which updates (if any) you want to install, uninstall the Microsoft Store (and keep it uninstalled), uninstall Edge (and keep it uninstalled), remove other unwanted bloatware (and keep it removed), control all group policy settings (without having them reverted every time MS feels like it), and receive security update support for several years longer than the retail version? No? Well, then, it might be "perfectly fine", but it's not "great."
    - forrestthewoods 2y ago
      Disagree. Somewhere inbetween respectfully and disrespectfully.
      - CamperBob2 2y ago
        I mean, respect is what it's about, isn't it? Respect for the user. LTSC still upholds that, while the conventional retail and corporate installations don't. No third-party add-ons can repair a closed-source OS that has been intentionally corrupted and degraded by its manufacturer. I desperately wish they could, but they can't. Conway's Law applies ("A product reflects its producer's org chart"), as does Gresham's Law ("The bad drives out the good.") A pressing question for Apple users is whether the same corrosion is at work at their own vendor of choice.
        forrestthewoods 2y ago

Windows is great. Windows laptops are universally garbage.

dismalaf 2y ago

They become a lot better when you install Linux.

forrestthewoods 2y ago
As someone who makes video games in C++ I’m going to have to disrespectfully disagree. But I will admit that SteamDeck is great. It’s deeply ironic that the best API for Linux gaming is Win32.
- dismalaf 2y ago
  So what's actually better about Windows? Other than the fact some legacy software still runs on it... Because for developing, say, financial apps in C++, Linux is much, much better IMO.
  - forrestthewoods 2y ago
    Better profilers (Superluminal). Better debuggers (Visual Studio). Linux package managers are an abomination and a failed model. As evidenced by Docker being required both to reliable build and reliably run modern software. glibc is an abomination of bad design ideas from the 80s. Compilers relying on whatever random ass version of a .so you have is broken AF. The fact that you can’t target an arbitrarily version of glibc or runtime environment is an embarrassment. Once upon a time I shipped a popular-ish game with Linux support. 1% of Linux users represented 50% of bug reports. And no it’s not because Linux players were more reliable at reporting Linux issues. It has been a few years, but supporting more than SteamDeck is likely similar. At least for non-proton builds.
    - genewitch 2y ago
      I like Portage when it works. When it doesn't, I don't like portage very much. I'm not sure if you can "alternatives" glibc in Gentoo, but the "whatever .so you have" isn't a thing there, you can slot different versions if you need to. If I want to test some software I'll use Ubuntu with docker or whatever, but to deploy to production I will make it run on Gentoo. Hell or high water. Windows software still ships every .dll it needs, unless it is a Microsoft one. Do a search for msvc.dll or whatever sometime and marvel at the pagination.
      - forrestthewoods 2y ago
        > Windows software still ships every .dll it needs This is the correct thing to do
    - dismalaf 2y ago
      > Better profilers (Superluminal). Better debuggers (Visual Studio). That's not a platform issue, that's a "these companies simply don't ship Linux versions". > Linux package managers are an abomination and a failed model. Ironic then that some Windows tools (Chocolatey) model them and Windows has WSL because tons of devs find that model easier. > As evidenced by Docker being required both to reliable build and reliably run modern software. Docker doesn't do away with that model, it just allows you to isolate specific versions of libraries and tools you need in a namespace/container. The standard model for shipping Windows software is to ship all the libraries needed with the software. Which isn't much different than what Docker is doing. > glibc is an abomination of bad design ideas from the 80s. Compilers relying on whatever random ass version of a .so you have is broken AF. The fact that you can’t target an arbitrarily version of glibc or runtime environment is an embarrassment. Maybe it's a bad model, can't speak to that. But you can statically link a C/C++ runtime with your software if you want, or ship alternative glibc versions. Also, if we're talking about shipping games on Steam, you can simply target the Steam runtime. It'll work on Steam deck + any Linux system.
    - seec 2y ago
      I am so glad that I'm not the only one thinking package managers are complete nonsense. Even on macOS I have always found Homebrew or MacPorts to be rather dumb (at least the latter is saner in some ways). Package managers have so many fundamental problems it's hard to even get started. But they appeal to the Linux type of person because it's a very communist type approach to things, authoritarian and panopticon like way. At least nowadays they are trying to allow installing software in some more convenient way but I'm not holding my breath considering there are competing implementations.
- 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
  Games are the one thing that’s much better in Windows. But then the best way to play them is to run Linux with whatever compatibility layer. Not to actually run windows.
  - forrestthewoods 2y ago
    If Linux is the best way to run games then why does Linux have a mere 1.45% user share on Steam? And I believe that includes SteamDeck.
    - dismalaf 2y ago
      Better doesn't always win. Steam Deck has also still sold millions.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    Unless you happen to play one of the many games with "anti-cheat", which doesn't work on Proton.
int_19h 2y ago
Well, except for battery life. Hardware support also varies from laptop to laptop. If you want one to run Linux without a hassle, you have to shop around for that specifically.

CamperBob2 2y ago

What? The only 'great' Windows since 7 is LTSC.

forrestthewoods 2y ago
Win10/Win11 with O&O Shutup are perfectly fine. https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  Does shutup10 allow you to decide which updates (if any) you want to install, uninstall the Microsoft Store (and keep it uninstalled), uninstall Edge (and keep it uninstalled), remove other unwanted bloatware (and keep it removed), control all group policy settings (without having them reverted every time MS feels like it), and receive security update support for several years longer than the retail version? No? Well, then, it might be "perfectly fine", but it's not "great."
  - forrestthewoods 2y ago
    Disagree. Somewhere inbetween respectfully and disrespectfully.
    - CamperBob2 2y ago
      I mean, respect is what it's about, isn't it? Respect for the user. LTSC still upholds that, while the conventional retail and corporate installations don't. No third-party add-ons can repair a closed-source OS that has been intentionally corrupted and degraded by its manufacturer. I desperately wish they could, but they can't. Conway's Law applies ("A product reflects its producer's org chart"), as does Gresham's Law ("The bad drives out the good.") A pressing question for Apple users is whether the same corrosion is at work at their own vendor of choice.
      - forrestthewoods 2y ago