6 ms·

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars, I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Du

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars, I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune. So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff like the early travel scenes in Pillars reminded me of early scenes among the Caladanians(?) in Dune. I think the part where I went "OK yeah this was the reference when he was coming up with the core plot and character of Paul" was when I came across the part where Lawrence comes up with his novel guerrilla war strategy: he's sick, feverish, possibly dying, in a tent in the desert, tended by a few companions. When he comes out of it, he's got his Path. It's too perfect. [edit] Incidentally, it's not clear to me this author has a good picture of Lawrence's background. Lines like this: > In terms of clothing, Lawrence comes to accept the Arab dress as “convenient in such a climate” and blends in with his Arab companions by wearing it instead of the British officer uniform. make me think the author isn't aware that Lawrence had already spent a lot of time in the Middle East (especially, IIRC, modern Syria—so, near Damascus) very shortly before the war broke out, and that was a big part of why he was recruited by British intelligence for the mission(s) in Seven Pillars. It was on an earlier, pre-war trip that he'd adopted Arab dress—unlike what's suggested (if not quite stated) in the film Lawrence of Arabia, he was already quite familiar with and comfortable in it.

softwaredoug 2y ago
What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works
- stevenwoo 2y ago
  The first book I concur but the series goes in directions I would never have predicted in multiple places in later books, off the top of my head - books four and five stand out in memory, though he laid the groundwork in the first book.
  - Talanes 2y ago
    Sure, but when was the last time anyone claimed a major franchise was ripping off God-Emperor?
- ViktorRay 2y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... A tale as old as time
  - UberFly 2y ago
    This is the final answer.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).
    - npodbielski 2y ago
      Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence. My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew. My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice. Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?
      - simiones 2y ago
        The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was definitely better than it had been under the Harkonnens, but this is not necessarily true across the empire. > Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? I think this is somewhat the general idea, but more specific. His main message is that charismatic leaders, even the ones with the best of intentions as Paul certainly was (and Leto II, though in a more complex way), are extremely dangerous and should not be trusted or followed. The empire overall would have been an unquestionably better place if Paul had been killed in the desert (except that perhaps the Bene Gesserit would have led people in an even worse direction if their plans had succeeded at the time). Arrakis itself would have been in a better shape if the fremen had risen up and overthrown their oppressors, but had otherwise stopped at that.
- throwup238 2y ago
  It’s even more stark the further back you go. When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood: shameless sequels and reboots. By far the most popular books were translations of Greek classics and rote derivatives of the Arthurian legends. It wasn’t until the first iterations of copyright and a few other cultural shifts that a “professional” writer class was born and started to expand on the creativity of our stories. Until then publishing wasn’t profitable enough to support a real creative process, so they cribbed as much from existing canon as they could to make ends meet. See how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form, for example.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    That's the third major use of the printing press. The first was for catholic indulgences. The second was for religious propaganda during the European wars of religion.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    > When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood It ushered in massive creativity! The early printshops were innovation hot-beds and quickly developed textual things that had never existed at scale before, like dictionaries, newspapers, political cartoons, encyclopaedia, technical drawings / manuals lacking copy errors, local maps, etc.
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    > how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form How long do you think that took? There's a wide range of possible dates for each endpoint, but I don't think it reaches a century.
- jhbadger 2y ago
  True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty much only from Dune. Unless they were mining oregano or something.
  - defrost 2y ago
    The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      > The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."
      - defrost 2y ago
        The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein. Others might disagree. English is a fun language. What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies. Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries. Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold. It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.
        2y ago
- RobRivera 2y ago
  It's derivation all the way down. That's what renewed my passion for reading; revisiting texts with contexts in mind, history, intent, etc. I feel the education system really fails people with these little bits
- cs02rm0 2y ago
  On Star Wars and derivations... Bertram Thomas' Arabia Felix, about his crossing of the Empty Quarter, listed some names of stars, transliterated from the arabic. The north star, was written as Al Jedi... the Jedi. It goes a step further, in that it's arabic which translates as the kid (as in a goat, but the same way Hans refers to Luke). I'm not sure how much is coincidence, but reading about Thomas preparing to travel by starlight, it struck me as being remarkably reminiscent. I guess there are no original stories.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  All creative work is derivative.
- BobbyTables2 2y ago
  I had friends that raved about Dune. Think they actually read the book. Later saw the movie and kept thinking there would be a twist. Was largely disappointed but the mother starting a holy war was a bit intriguing.
  - 392 2y ago
    Keep watching the movies, you will love the next one :-)
- lazystar 2y ago
  adding to this... Avatar is often thought of as unique, but it's a blatant copy paste of Timothy Zahn's "Manta's Gift" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift
  - pitaj 2y ago
    Avatar the movie franchise? The most common thing you'll hear people say about it is that it's "Pocahontas in space".
ViktorRay 2y ago
If you really wanted to you could say even George RR Martin was influenced by it. (Game of Thrones spoilers below) Look at the character arc of Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones. You will find some similarities there too both with Dune and with Lawrence of Arabia. But with a female character rather than a male.
- SJC_Hacker 2y ago
  Alot more parallels than that Starks = Atreides, Ned = Leto, Catelyn / Sansa = Lady Jessica, Paul = Jon/Robb, Duncan Idaho = Benjen, Gurney = Aemon Targaryen / Jorah Mormont, Chani = Ygritte / Arya, Jamis = Tormund, Dr. Yueh = Littlefinger Lannisters = Harkonnens, Tywin = Baron Vladimir, Joffrey / Jaime = Feyd / Rabban (to some degree, traits are mixed between these characters)
  - bongoman42 2y ago
    At some level you can map any epic to any epic.
supportengineer 2y ago
Are you saying he knew their ways as if he was born to them?
mtillman 2y ago
Related Herbert audio interview on the origins of Dune. Sorry it’s a YouTube link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-mLVVJkH7I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-mLVVJkH7I
- cyost 2y ago
  This should be the transcribed copy of that interview http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm The part relevant to the OP: FH: Well, one of the threads in the story is to trace a possible way a messiah is created in our society, and I hope I was successful in making it believable. Here we have the entire process, or at least the large and some of the subtle elements of the construction of this, both from the individual standpoint, and from the way society demands this of you. It’s the references in there, you know, that the man must recognize the myth he is living in, because the creation of an avatar is a mythmaking process. We’ve done it in our…in recent times. Look at what’s happening to John F. Kennedy. WM: O, sure. FH: Who was a very earthy, real, and not totally holy man…so here we have a likeable person, now, you see… WM: Yes. FH: But real in the flesh and blood sense who by the process of emulation becomes something larger than life, far larger than life, and I’ve just explored all of as many permutations as I could recognize in the process. WM: Oh, I-I caught overtones of Lawrence of Arabia in the thing, for example. FH: He could very well become an avatar for the…for the Arabs. WM: Right. FH: If Lawrence of Arabia had died at the crucial moment of the British… WM: Say, when Allenby walked into Jerusalem. FH: Yes. If he had died…if, for example, he had gone up and killed the people who were destroying his breed, walked into that conference and said, Gentlemen, I have here under my javala a surprise, Bang! Bang! Bang! and he had been killed… WM: He’d have been deified. FH: He would have been deified. And it would have been the most terrifying thing the British had ever encountered, because the Arabs would have swept that entire peninsula with that sort of force, because one of the things we’ve done in our society is exploited this power…Western man has exploited this avatar power.
- DavidVoid 2y ago
  The part of that interview that's stuck with me after I listened to this last year was his comments about the feudal system (at around 38:30 [1]). So, tribal organisation is a natural organisation of humankind. We tend to fall into it, given any chance at all, given the proper stresses, or given the proper lack of stresses. [1]: https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?t=2314 https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?t=2314
inopinatus 2y ago
The discrepancy is easy to explain; Frank Herbert never owned a copy of Seven Pillars but was instead inspired by a manuscript of desert adventures that he’d found on a train as a boy whilst holidaying in the UK.
- alabastervlog 2y ago
  I see what you did there. (those who don't follow: you can catch up on the Seven Pillars wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pillars_of_Wisdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pillars_of_Wisdom or like basically any biography of Lawrence, various forwards, et c.)
- pjmorris 2y ago
  Clever.
gostsamo 2y ago
> make me think the author isn't aware that Lawrence had already spent a lot of time in the Middle East it is actually mentioned in the article. you misread here, with the point being that knowing how to do something is not the same as accepting it for a normal activity.
rozab 2y ago
I do think it's unfair when people claim Dune is a straight retelling of T.E. Lawrence's story. For instance I think the messianic aspects are drawn from other episodes in history, like the Mahdist War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
TeaBrain 2y ago
>unlike what's suggested (if not quite stated) in the film Lawrence of Arabia The scene from the movie is based on this passage from chapter 20 of Seven Pillars, which suggests that while he was familiar with Arab clothing before the war, there was a period of time when he was in British army uniform during the Arab conflict, until he was asked by Feisal to change into Arab clothes: "Suddenly Feisal asked me if I would wear Arab clothes like his own while in the camp. I should find it better for my own part, since it was a comfortable dress in which to live Arab-fashion as we must do. Besides, the tribesmen would then understand how to take me. The only wearers of khaki in their experience had been Turkish officers, before whom they took up an instinctive defence. If I wore Meccan clothes, they would behave to me as though I were really one of the leaders; and I might slip in and out of Feisal’s tent without making a sensation which he had to explain away each time to strangers. I agreed at once, very gladly; for army uniform was abominable when camel-riding or when sitting about on the ground; and the Arab things, which I had learned to manage before the war, were cleaner and more decent in the desert." Also, the below quote is from the introduction, which I might add is perhaps the most beautiful introduction I've ever read. I sometimes go back just to read it: "In my case, the effort for these years to live in the dress of Arabs, and to imitate their mental foundation, quitted me of my English self, and let me look at the West and its conventions with new eyes: they destroyed it all for me, At the same time I could not sincerely take on the Arab skin: it was an affectation only. Easily was a man made an infidel, but hardly might he be converted to another faith. I had dropped one form and not taken on the other, and was become like Mohammed’s coffin in our legend, with a resultant feeling of intense loneliness in life, and a contempt, not for other men, but for all they do."

softwaredoug 2y ago

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

stevenwoo 2y ago
The first book I concur but the series goes in directions I would never have predicted in multiple places in later books, off the top of my head - books four and five stand out in memory, though he laid the groundwork in the first book.
- Talanes 2y ago
  Sure, but when was the last time anyone claimed a major franchise was ripping off God-Emperor?
ViktorRay 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... A tale as old as time
- UberFly 2y ago
  This is the final answer.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).
  - npodbielski 2y ago
    Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence. My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew. My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice. Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?
    - simiones 2y ago
      The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was definitely better than it had been under the Harkonnens, but this is not necessarily true across the empire. > Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? I think this is somewhat the general idea, but more specific. His main message is that charismatic leaders, even the ones with the best of intentions as Paul certainly was (and Leto II, though in a more complex way), are extremely dangerous and should not be trusted or followed. The empire overall would have been an unquestionably better place if Paul had been killed in the desert (except that perhaps the Bene Gesserit would have led people in an even worse direction if their plans had succeeded at the time). Arrakis itself would have been in a better shape if the fremen had risen up and overthrown their oppressors, but had otherwise stopped at that.
throwup238 2y ago
It’s even more stark the further back you go. When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood: shameless sequels and reboots. By far the most popular books were translations of Greek classics and rote derivatives of the Arthurian legends. It wasn’t until the first iterations of copyright and a few other cultural shifts that a “professional” writer class was born and started to expand on the creativity of our stories. Until then publishing wasn’t profitable enough to support a real creative process, so they cribbed as much from existing canon as they could to make ends meet. See how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form, for example.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  That's the third major use of the printing press. The first was for catholic indulgences. The second was for religious propaganda during the European wars of religion.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  > When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood It ushered in massive creativity! The early printshops were innovation hot-beds and quickly developed textual things that had never existed at scale before, like dictionaries, newspapers, political cartoons, encyclopaedia, technical drawings / manuals lacking copy errors, local maps, etc.
- andrewflnr 2y ago
  > how long it took science fiction to properly develop into a literary form How long do you think that took? There's a wide range of possible dates for each endpoint, but I don't think it reaches a century.
jhbadger 2y ago
True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty much only from Dune. Unless they were mining oregano or something.
- defrost 2y ago
  The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    > The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) Only ginger and turmeric are found below soil, and even then you wouldn't usually describe farmers as "literally mining for potatoes."
    - defrost 2y ago
      The airquotes on "mining" would signify to some that literal mining with excavators, screens, crushers, etc was not intended rather an operation that was literally on the scale of mining with an economic return on par with gold mining a rich vein. Others might disagree. English is a fun language. What cannot be disputed is the significant increase in national wealth brought home by the Dutch operations in what was known as the Dutch East Indies. Batavia ( now Jakarta) was the capital of the VOC's lucrative spice trade for 3½ centuries. Ships laden with tamarind, mace, cloves and nutmeg – at that time worth more, gram for gram, than gold - sailed from there to the Netherlands and often wrecked on the Western Australian coast returning with gold. It's the value per weight part that merits comparison with Spanish aquisition of gold in the new world.
      - 2y ago
RobRivera 2y ago
It's derivation all the way down. That's what renewed my passion for reading; revisiting texts with contexts in mind, history, intent, etc. I feel the education system really fails people with these little bits
cs02rm0 2y ago
On Star Wars and derivations... Bertram Thomas' Arabia Felix, about his crossing of the Empty Quarter, listed some names of stars, transliterated from the arabic. The north star, was written as Al Jedi... the Jedi. It goes a step further, in that it's arabic which translates as the kid (as in a goat, but the same way Hans refers to Luke). I'm not sure how much is coincidence, but reading about Thomas preparing to travel by starlight, it struck me as being remarkably reminiscent. I guess there are no original stories.
lupusreal 2y ago
All creative work is derivative.
BobbyTables2 2y ago
I had friends that raved about Dune. Think they actually read the book. Later saw the movie and kept thinking there would be a twist. Was largely disappointed but the mother starting a holy war was a bit intriguing.
- 392 2y ago
  Keep watching the movies, you will love the next one :-)
lazystar 2y ago
adding to this... Avatar is often thought of as unique, but it's a blatant copy paste of Timothy Zahn's "Manta's Gift" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/216441.Manta_s_Gift
- pitaj 2y ago
  Avatar the movie franchise? The most common thing you'll hear people say about it is that it's "Pocahontas in space".

ViktorRay 2y ago

If you really wanted to you could say even George RR Martin was influenced by it. (Game of Thrones spoilers below) Look at the character arc of Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones. You will find some similarities there too both with Dune and with Lawrence of Arabia. But with a female character rather than a male.

SJC_Hacker 2y ago
Alot more parallels than that Starks = Atreides, Ned = Leto, Catelyn / Sansa = Lady Jessica, Paul = Jon/Robb, Duncan Idaho = Benjen, Gurney = Aemon Targaryen / Jorah Mormont, Chani = Ygritte / Arya, Jamis = Tormund, Dr. Yueh = Littlefinger Lannisters = Harkonnens, Tywin = Baron Vladimir, Joffrey / Jaime = Feyd / Rabban (to some degree, traits are mixed between these characters)
- bongoman42 2y ago
  At some level you can map any epic to any epic.

supportengineer 2y ago

Are you saying he knew their ways as if he was born to them?

mtillman 2y ago

Related Herbert audio interview on the origins of Dune. Sorry it’s a YouTube link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-mLVVJkH7I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A-mLVVJkH7I

cyost 2y ago
This should be the transcribed copy of that interview http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm The part relevant to the OP: FH: Well, one of the threads in the story is to trace a possible way a messiah is created in our society, and I hope I was successful in making it believable. Here we have the entire process, or at least the large and some of the subtle elements of the construction of this, both from the individual standpoint, and from the way society demands this of you. It’s the references in there, you know, that the man must recognize the myth he is living in, because the creation of an avatar is a mythmaking process. We’ve done it in our…in recent times. Look at what’s happening to John F. Kennedy. WM: O, sure. FH: Who was a very earthy, real, and not totally holy man…so here we have a likeable person, now, you see… WM: Yes. FH: But real in the flesh and blood sense who by the process of emulation becomes something larger than life, far larger than life, and I’ve just explored all of as many permutations as I could recognize in the process. WM: Oh, I-I caught overtones of Lawrence of Arabia in the thing, for example. FH: He could very well become an avatar for the…for the Arabs. WM: Right. FH: If Lawrence of Arabia had died at the crucial moment of the British… WM: Say, when Allenby walked into Jerusalem. FH: Yes. If he had died…if, for example, he had gone up and killed the people who were destroying his breed, walked into that conference and said, Gentlemen, I have here under my javala a surprise, Bang! Bang! Bang! and he had been killed… WM: He’d have been deified. FH: He would have been deified. And it would have been the most terrifying thing the British had ever encountered, because the Arabs would have swept that entire peninsula with that sort of force, because one of the things we’ve done in our society is exploited this power…Western man has exploited this avatar power.
DavidVoid 2y ago
The part of that interview that's stuck with me after I listened to this last year was his comments about the feudal system (at around 38:30 [1]). So, tribal organisation is a natural organisation of humankind. We tend to fall into it, given any chance at all, given the proper stresses, or given the proper lack of stresses. [1]: https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?t=2314 https://youtu.be/A-mLVVJkH7I?t=2314

inopinatus 2y ago

The discrepancy is easy to explain; Frank Herbert never owned a copy of Seven Pillars but was instead inspired by a manuscript of desert adventures that he’d found on a train as a boy whilst holidaying in the UK.

alabastervlog 2y ago
I see what you did there. (those who don't follow: you can catch up on the Seven Pillars wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pillars_of_Wisdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Pillars_of_Wisdom or like basically any biography of Lawrence, various forwards, et c.)
pjmorris 2y ago
Clever.

gostsamo 2y ago

> make me think the author isn't aware that Lawrence had already spent a lot of time in the Middle East it is actually mentioned in the article. you misread here, with the point being that knowing how to do something is not the same as accepting it for a normal activity.

rozab 2y ago

I do think it's unfair when people claim Dune is a straight retelling of T.E. Lawrence's story. For instance I think the messianic aspects are drawn from other episodes in history, like the Mahdist War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

TeaBrain 2y ago

>unlike what's suggested (if not quite stated) in the film Lawrence of Arabia The scene from the movie is based on this passage from chapter 20 of Seven Pillars, which suggests that while he was familiar with Arab clothing before the war, there was a period of time when he was in British army uniform during the Arab conflict, until he was asked by Feisal to change into Arab clothes: "Suddenly Feisal asked me if I would wear Arab clothes like his own while in the camp. I should find it better for my own part, since it was a comfortable dress in which to live Arab-fashion as we must do. Besides, the tribesmen would then understand how to take me. The only wearers of khaki in their experience had been Turkish officers, before whom they took up an instinctive defence. If I wore Meccan clothes, they would behave to me as though I were really one of the leaders; and I might slip in and out of Feisal’s tent without making a sensation which he had to explain away each time to strangers. I agreed at once, very gladly; for army uniform was abominable when camel-riding or when sitting about on the ground; and the Arab things, which I had learned to manage before the war, were cleaner and more decent in the desert." Also, the below quote is from the introduction, which I might add is perhaps the most beautiful introduction I've ever read. I sometimes go back just to read it: "In my case, the effort for these years to live in the dress of Arabs, and to imitate their mental foundation, quitted me of my English self, and let me look at the West and its conventions with new eyes: they destroyed it all for me, At the same time I could not sincerely take on the Arab skin: it was an affectation only. Easily was a man made an infidel, but hardly might he be converted to another faith. I had dropped one form and not taken on the other, and was become like Mohammed’s coffin in our legend, with a resultant feeling of intense loneliness in life, and a contempt, not for other men, but for all they do."