5 ms·

This leaves me with more questions than answers, how did these three companies come up with the idea of using that logo? Did they just independently arrive at s

by soamv 2y ago

This leaves me with more questions than answers, how did these three companies come up with the idea of using that logo? Did they just independently arrive at same design (seems unlikely)? And how did the trademark registration process go for the second and third companies that registered it?

dmurray 2y ago
It's mentioned in TFA that it comes from the Mitsubishi family crest. So the logo is conceptually much older than any of their registrations.
- yellers 2y ago
  Well I’m glad that TFA really explains the connection between Jinroku Masaki and the Mitsubishi family crest because otherwise I’d still be confused. (Or maybe it’s a westerner thing expecting the name of the founder to match the crests family in name)
  - suspended_state 2y ago
    The company history page on the corporate web site of Mitsubishi Pencils provides a reason behind the name: https://www.mpuni.co.jp/en/company/history.html https://www.mpuni.co.jp/en/company/history.html It's not clear why the 3 companies got the right to use the same logo. Perhaps they could each demonstrate that they used that logo before Japanese law required for it to be formally submitted for trademark?
    - limitedfrom 2y ago
      See my reply up on the original question.
Etheryte 2y ago
Turns out they used to be one conglomerate, but World War II changed that [0]: > The Mitsubishi Group traces its origins to the Mitsubishi zaibatsu, a unified company that existed from 1870 to 1946. The company, along with other major zaibatsu, was disbanded during the occupation of Japan following World War II by the order of the Allies. Despite the dissolution, the former constituent companies continue to share the Mitsubishi brand and trademark. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi
- abhorrence 2y ago
  The pencil company referenced in the article does not appear to have been part of the Mitsubishi zaibatsu however.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    I used to think it's cool the same company makes a pencil and an F-16 derivative ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 ), but alas, the pencilmaker is not the same company. Mitsubishi also makes the world's most expensive toaster: https://youtu.be/Lq3iwWaoU7w https://youtu.be/Lq3iwWaoU7w
- nguyenkien 2y ago
  Not the case here. These 3 corp are unrelated (Excerpt for the name, logo). Did you even read the blog post or the wikipedia article you post?
- tecleandor 2y ago
  I'm tempted to write an small blogpost about this one with some explanations, as that blogpost is a bit old :D but there's a couple things I found in this rabbit hole I fell: First, as some of you have noted, the 三 kanji means 'three' [0] and Mitsubishi means 'three diamonds' [1]. Hence, the traditional family crest from the Mitsubishi family. The concrete origin can be found around here [2] Mitsubishi Pencil is the first one registering the three diamond logo, in 1903 [3]. Mitsubishi zaibatsu logo was thinner and a bit different then [4]. During the occupation of Japan after WWII, the Allied Powers (GHQ) ordered dismantling the zaibatsu and stopping using the Mitsui and Mitsubishi brands (among others) [5]. Mitsubishi Pencil was not part of the zaibatsu, but using the same name, it was in risk of disappearing. After negotiations by their president with the GHQ they were allowed to keep it if they indicated that they're not part of the zaibatsu [6]. Back in the fifties you could see "non-zaibatsu" under their logo in their products. [7] The 'Mitsubishi Cider' made by Konyusha doesn't exist anymore but its trademark was registered by Mazda Kogyo (now Mazda Total Solutions) in 1919. No, not THAT Mazda, a different Mazda (Matsuda/Mazda is a Japanese surname, so, more confusion :D) Mazda Kogyo would have contracted Konyusha to manufacture and sell the product in 1919 [8]. In 2014 Mazda Kogyo transfered the brand to Mitsubishi Corporation while Konyusha was still manufacturing it, and in 2015 they changed their name to Mazda Total Solutions [9]. Haven't totally understood their message, but I think Mazda Total Solutions has ceased operations as of today [10]. Konyusha stopped manufacturing and selling the cider in 2017 [11]. I've seen somewhere that could be related to the Kumamoto earthquake of 2016, as that Konyusha's location. Fun fact, there's is a cider named "Mitsuya Cider" [12] that has a similar logo, but with "arrows" instead of diamonds. When it started, as a carbonated water brand in the 1880s, it was part of the Mitsubishi zaibatsu, but it was split from the company a couple years later [13]. -- 0: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89#Japanese 1: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E8%8F%B1#Etymology_2 2: https://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/corporate/gaiyo/history/logo/ 3: https://mpuni.net/en/company/history.html 4: https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Mitsubishi 5: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B2%A1%E9%96%A5%E8%A7%A3%E4%BD%93 6: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jp/kenjiando/mitsubishi-pencil 7: https://jaa2100.org/entry/detail/035688.html 8: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BC%98%E4%B9%B3%E8%88%8E#%E4%B8%89%E8%8F%B1%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A4%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6 9: https://matsudats.com/#history 10: https://matsudats.com/#message 11: https://web.archive.org/web/20171031110949/http://konyusha.co.jp/%e4%b8%89%e8%8f%b1%e3%82%b5%e3%82%a4%e3%83%80%e3%83%bc%e8%b2%a9%e5%a3%b2%e7%b5%82%e4%ba%86%e3%81%ae%e3%81%8a%e7%9f%a5%e3%82%89%e3%81%9b/ 12: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuya_Cider 13: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E3%83%84%E7%9F%A2%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A4%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC
chychiu 2y ago
The Kanji for Mitsubishi is 三菱, which literally means “three rhombus”. It is possible that they were independently invented, but the hypothesis on family crest crossovers still feels more likely
- madcaptenor 2y ago
  Independent invention seems unlikely to me - there are different colors, different ways to arrange the three rhombi, etc.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    The design is much older in east asia, I've seen it on 19th century textiles and pottery for sure but I suspect it goes back a lot more than that. The shape is somehow associated with the name mitsubishi, possibly through visual or phonetic punning that is common in pictogram-based writing systems and tonal languages. Mitsubishi the name is more widespread than this one family or this group of companies, and the symbol appears to have long associated with the name per se rather than this specific mitsubishi. Mitsu sounds like three, I don't know what the rhombus connection is. That shade of red has a specific proper name in japanese (think like alice blue in english) and has long been associated with japan by the japanese. I don't think any of this is a coincidence there's a connection between all this stuff. But I don't know what it is and I don't think the article author does either.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      > a specific proper name in japanese (think like alice blue in english) I hadn't heard of that one [0], the example that comes to mind is "Canary Yellow", but I suppose that's not so bound up to a specific cultural history. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_blue
    - andrekandre 2y ago
      > pictogram-based writing i think you might mean ideogram-based?
limitedfrom 2y ago
These pages[0][1] has more details. The families had three different emblems to start. The zaibatsu came up with the now famous three diamond design in in 1873[2], but there were no trademark laws until 1884, and many companies proceeded to use the logo. The pencil company first registered this in 1903. The zaibatsu finally got to it in 1914, but the earlier filing by the pencil company was honoured. As for the cider company, sounds like they've been selling it like it since 1913[2], but registered it in 1919? My guess is that since it was a regional product with the product type in the name that's already established (like [3]), they allowed it. [0] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A4 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3... (translated: https://ja-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A4?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://ja-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%...) [1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/jp/kenjiando/mitsubishi-pencil https://www.buzzfeed.com/jp/kenjiando/mitsubishi-pencil [2] https://www.mitsubishi.com/ja/series/yataro/11/ https://www.mitsubishi.com/ja/series/yataro/11/ [3] https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%B0%E5%9F%9F%E5%9B%A3%E4%BD%93%E5%95%86%E6%A8%99 https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%B0%E5%9F%9F%E5%9B%A3%...
- ghc 2y ago
  Thank you! I knew there must be some logical explanation beyond coincidence.
killingtime74 2y ago
Trademarks are for certain product or service categories not blanket economy wide
seanhunter 2y ago
They also didn't. Mufg's logo is like a venn diagram with a dot in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUFG_Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUFG_Bank

by soamv 2y ago

dmurray 2y ago

It's mentioned in TFA that it comes from the Mitsubishi family crest. So the logo is conceptually much older than any of their registrations.

yellers 2y ago
Well I’m glad that TFA really explains the connection between Jinroku Masaki and the Mitsubishi family crest because otherwise I’d still be confused. (Or maybe it’s a westerner thing expecting the name of the founder to match the crests family in name)
- suspended_state 2y ago
  The company history page on the corporate web site of Mitsubishi Pencils provides a reason behind the name: https://www.mpuni.co.jp/en/company/history.html https://www.mpuni.co.jp/en/company/history.html It's not clear why the 3 companies got the right to use the same logo. Perhaps they could each demonstrate that they used that logo before Japanese law required for it to be formally submitted for trademark?
  - limitedfrom 2y ago
    See my reply up on the original question.

Etheryte 2y ago

Turns out they used to be one conglomerate, but World War II changed that [0]: > The Mitsubishi Group traces its origins to the Mitsubishi zaibatsu, a unified company that existed from 1870 to 1946. The company, along with other major zaibatsu, was disbanded during the occupation of Japan following World War II by the order of the Allies. Despite the dissolution, the former constituent companies continue to share the Mitsubishi brand and trademark. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi

abhorrence 2y ago
The pencil company referenced in the article does not appear to have been part of the Mitsubishi zaibatsu however.
- netsharc 2y ago
  I used to think it's cool the same company makes a pencil and an F-16 derivative ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 ), but alas, the pencilmaker is not the same company. Mitsubishi also makes the world's most expensive toaster: https://youtu.be/Lq3iwWaoU7w https://youtu.be/Lq3iwWaoU7w
nguyenkien 2y ago
Not the case here. These 3 corp are unrelated (Excerpt for the name, logo). Did you even read the blog post or the wikipedia article you post?
tecleandor 2y ago
I'm tempted to write an small blogpost about this one with some explanations, as that blogpost is a bit old :D but there's a couple things I found in this rabbit hole I fell: First, as some of you have noted, the 三 kanji means 'three' [0] and Mitsubishi means 'three diamonds' [1]. Hence, the traditional family crest from the Mitsubishi family. The concrete origin can be found around here [2] Mitsubishi Pencil is the first one registering the three diamond logo, in 1903 [3]. Mitsubishi zaibatsu logo was thinner and a bit different then [4]. During the occupation of Japan after WWII, the Allied Powers (GHQ) ordered dismantling the zaibatsu and stopping using the Mitsui and Mitsubishi brands (among others) [5]. Mitsubishi Pencil was not part of the zaibatsu, but using the same name, it was in risk of disappearing. After negotiations by their president with the GHQ they were allowed to keep it if they indicated that they're not part of the zaibatsu [6]. Back in the fifties you could see "non-zaibatsu" under their logo in their products. [7] The 'Mitsubishi Cider' made by Konyusha doesn't exist anymore but its trademark was registered by Mazda Kogyo (now Mazda Total Solutions) in 1919. No, not THAT Mazda, a different Mazda (Matsuda/Mazda is a Japanese surname, so, more confusion :D) Mazda Kogyo would have contracted Konyusha to manufacture and sell the product in 1919 [8]. In 2014 Mazda Kogyo transfered the brand to Mitsubishi Corporation while Konyusha was still manufacturing it, and in 2015 they changed their name to Mazda Total Solutions [9]. Haven't totally understood their message, but I think Mazda Total Solutions has ceased operations as of today [10]. Konyusha stopped manufacturing and selling the cider in 2017 [11]. I've seen somewhere that could be related to the Kumamoto earthquake of 2016, as that Konyusha's location. Fun fact, there's is a cider named "Mitsuya Cider" [12] that has a similar logo, but with "arrows" instead of diamonds. When it started, as a carbonated water brand in the 1880s, it was part of the Mitsubishi zaibatsu, but it was split from the company a couple years later [13]. -- 0: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89#Japanese 1: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E8%8F%B1#Etymology_2 2: https://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/corporate/gaiyo/history/logo/ 3: https://mpuni.net/en/company/history.html 4: https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Mitsubishi 5: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B2%A1%E9%96%A5%E8%A7%A3%E4%BD%93 6: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jp/kenjiando/mitsubishi-pencil 7: https://jaa2100.org/entry/detail/035688.html 8: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BC%98%E4%B9%B3%E8%88%8E#%E4%B8%89%E8%8F%B1%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A4%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6 9: https://matsudats.com/#history 10: https://matsudats.com/#message 11: https://web.archive.org/web/20171031110949/http://konyusha.co.jp/%e4%b8%89%e8%8f%b1%e3%82%b5%e3%82%a4%e3%83%80%e3%83%bc%e8%b2%a9%e5%a3%b2%e7%b5%82%e4%ba%86%e3%81%ae%e3%81%8a%e7%9f%a5%e3%82%89%e3%81%9b/ 12: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuya_Cider 13: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E3%83%84%E7%9F%A2%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A4%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC

chychiu 2y ago

The Kanji for Mitsubishi is 三菱, which literally means “three rhombus”. It is possible that they were independently invented, but the hypothesis on family crest crossovers still feels more likely

madcaptenor 2y ago
Independent invention seems unlikely to me - there are different colors, different ways to arrange the three rhombi, etc.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  The design is much older in east asia, I've seen it on 19th century textiles and pottery for sure but I suspect it goes back a lot more than that. The shape is somehow associated with the name mitsubishi, possibly through visual or phonetic punning that is common in pictogram-based writing systems and tonal languages. Mitsubishi the name is more widespread than this one family or this group of companies, and the symbol appears to have long associated with the name per se rather than this specific mitsubishi. Mitsu sounds like three, I don't know what the rhombus connection is. That shade of red has a specific proper name in japanese (think like alice blue in english) and has long been associated with japan by the japanese. I don't think any of this is a coincidence there's a connection between all this stuff. But I don't know what it is and I don't think the article author does either.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    > a specific proper name in japanese (think like alice blue in english) I hadn't heard of that one [0], the example that comes to mind is "Canary Yellow", but I suppose that's not so bound up to a specific cultural history. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_blue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_blue
  - andrekandre 2y ago
    > pictogram-based writing i think you might mean ideogram-based?

limitedfrom 2y ago

These pages[0][1] has more details. The families had three different emblems to start. The zaibatsu came up with the now famous three diamond design in in 1873[2], but there were no trademark laws until 1884, and many companies proceeded to use the logo. The pencil company first registered this in 1903. The zaibatsu finally got to it in 1914, but the earlier filing by the pencil company was honoured. As for the cider company, sounds like they've been selling it like it since 1913[2], but registered it in 1919? My guess is that since it was a regional product with the product type in the name that's already established (like [3]), they allowed it. [0] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A4 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3... (translated: https://ja-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%82%A4%E3%83%A4?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://ja-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%E3%82%B9%E3%...) [1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/jp/kenjiando/mitsubishi-pencil https://www.buzzfeed.com/jp/kenjiando/mitsubishi-pencil [2] https://www.mitsubishi.com/ja/series/yataro/11/ https://www.mitsubishi.com/ja/series/yataro/11/ [3] https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%B0%E5%9F%9F%E5%9B%A3%E4%BD%93%E5%95%86%E6%A8%99 https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%B0%E5%9F%9F%E5%9B%A3%...

ghc 2y ago
Thank you! I knew there must be some logical explanation beyond coincidence.

killingtime74 2y ago

Trademarks are for certain product or service categories not blanket economy wide

seanhunter 2y ago

They also didn't. Mufg's logo is like a venn diagram with a dot in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUFG_Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUFG_Bank