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> Apple doesn't design the CPUs, they license the IP [citation needed] I know someone who works on processor stuff at Apple. More detail would obviously be ba

by koko775 14y ago

> Apple doesn't design the CPUs, they license the IP [citation needed] I know someone who works on processor stuff at Apple. More detail would obviously be bad for him, but they have digital design expertise which they are actively using to design (presumably) their future generations of chips.

ajross 14y ago
I really need to cite the fact that Apple uses an ARM Cortex A9 and PVR SGX? You couldn't look that up on wikipedia?
- Steko 14y ago
  You guys are just talking past each other. Apple, just like everyone else, makes modifications/optimizations to the base ARM designs. Look it up on wikipedia if you like.
  - ajross 14y ago
    No, that's simply wrong. There's certainly nothing on wikipedia to back that up, nor anywhere in the industry press that I'm aware of. The A9 in the iPhone 4S is 100% indistinguishable from the same core in Exynos 4 or OMAP44x0.
    - mtgx 14y ago
      You're right. All Cortex A9 chips are the same. What might differ is the fab process. A company could make it at 40 nm, another at 32nm and another at 28nm, so you would get further optimization from that as well. Apple's A5X SoC is 50% bigger in surface than Tegra 3. Considering the Tegra 3 SoC contains 4 CPU cores, and Apple's A5X only 2 CPU cores, plus taking into account all that extra space, I could see how A5X's GPU easily doubles Tegra 3's GPU in size, if not more. That's where the performance increase is coming from. Hopefully Nvidia and others will be smart enough to build bigger chips with in the next generations.
    - Steko 14y ago
      "There's certainly nothing on wikipedia to back that up" Emphasis below mine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture Fabless licensees, who wish to integrate an ARM core into their own chip design, are usually only interested in acquiring a ready-to-manufacture verified IP core. For these customers, ARM delivers a gate netlist description of the chosen ARM core, along with an abstracted simulation model and test programs to aid design integration and verification. More ambitious customers, including integrated device manufacturers (IDM) and foundry operators, choose to acquire the processor IP in synthesizable RTL (Verilog) form. With the synthesizable RTL, the customer has the ability to perform architectural level optimisations and extensions. This allows the designer to achieve exotic design goals not otherwise possible with an unmodified netlist (high clock speed, very low power consumption, instruction set extensions, etc.). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5 "The A5 contains a rendition of a chip based upon the dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU[10] with NEON SIMD accelerator and a dual core PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU.[11] ... Among the customizations that Apple has done to the chip is the inclusion of an image signal processor unit (ISP) that will do advanced image post-processing such as face detection, white balance and automatic image stabilization[14] and an "earSmart" unit from Audience for noise canceling" Look I'm no expert but it's been often reported in the press about the A4 and moreso the A5 that Apple made optimizations to them. PA Semi was originally often attached to such reports but I think later reporting often cited the Intrinsity acquisition. Here's a comparison of the A5 and the reference ARM Cortex A9 design: http://www.twitpic.com/4a0ggc http://www.twitpic.com/4a0ggc
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - ajross 14y ago
        This is starting to feel like debunking a conspiracy myth, so I'll let this be my last update (except to point out that you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said. Again, sigh.: First link says that A9 is sold as synthesizable IP (duh), not that Apple made modifications. Second that Apple integrated a separate DSP core (a completely unrelated subject). Third just shows that they did indeed synthesize it (any change of floor plan is going to produce an completely different layout for the same circuit). Is there any evidence at all that Apple made secret-sauce changes to the A9? There certainly aren't benchmarks of any kind to show it. Any new features? Anything at all that the posited "Apple A9" does differently than all the dozen others out there in the wild? No.
Aloisius 14y ago
Apple's mobile chips are just systems-on-a-chip packages of ARM and PowerVR chips that are then fabricated by Samsung. Apple has nowhere near the engineering capability to design a full CPU from scratch. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5
- wmf 14y ago
  Apple has nowhere near the engineering capability to design a full CPU from scratch. They did after buying PA Semi, but after Agnilux and Keller they may not now. In any case it appears they didn't use that talent that way.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

by koko775 14y ago

ajross 14y ago

I really need to cite the fact that Apple uses an ARM Cortex A9 and PVR SGX? You couldn't look that up on wikipedia?

Steko 14y ago
You guys are just talking past each other. Apple, just like everyone else, makes modifications/optimizations to the base ARM designs. Look it up on wikipedia if you like.
- ajross 14y ago
  No, that's simply wrong. There's certainly nothing on wikipedia to back that up, nor anywhere in the industry press that I'm aware of. The A9 in the iPhone 4S is 100% indistinguishable from the same core in Exynos 4 or OMAP44x0.
  - mtgx 14y ago
    You're right. All Cortex A9 chips are the same. What might differ is the fab process. A company could make it at 40 nm, another at 32nm and another at 28nm, so you would get further optimization from that as well. Apple's A5X SoC is 50% bigger in surface than Tegra 3. Considering the Tegra 3 SoC contains 4 CPU cores, and Apple's A5X only 2 CPU cores, plus taking into account all that extra space, I could see how A5X's GPU easily doubles Tegra 3's GPU in size, if not more. That's where the performance increase is coming from. Hopefully Nvidia and others will be smart enough to build bigger chips with in the next generations.
  - Steko 14y ago
    "There's certainly nothing on wikipedia to back that up" Emphasis below mine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture Fabless licensees, who wish to integrate an ARM core into their own chip design, are usually only interested in acquiring a ready-to-manufacture verified IP core. For these customers, ARM delivers a gate netlist description of the chosen ARM core, along with an abstracted simulation model and test programs to aid design integration and verification. More ambitious customers, including integrated device manufacturers (IDM) and foundry operators, choose to acquire the processor IP in synthesizable RTL (Verilog) form. With the synthesizable RTL, the customer has the ability to perform architectural level optimisations and extensions. This allows the designer to achieve exotic design goals not otherwise possible with an unmodified netlist (high clock speed, very low power consumption, instruction set extensions, etc.). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5 "The A5 contains a rendition of a chip based upon the dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU[10] with NEON SIMD accelerator and a dual core PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU.[11] ... Among the customizations that Apple has done to the chip is the inclusion of an image signal processor unit (ISP) that will do advanced image post-processing such as face detection, white balance and automatic image stabilization[14] and an "earSmart" unit from Audience for noise canceling" Look I'm no expert but it's been often reported in the press about the A4 and moreso the A5 that Apple made optimizations to them. PA Semi was originally often attached to such reports but I think later reporting often cited the Intrinsity acquisition. Here's a comparison of the A5 and the reference ARM Cortex A9 design: http://www.twitpic.com/4a0ggc http://www.twitpic.com/4a0ggc
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - ajross 14y ago
      This is starting to feel like debunking a conspiracy myth, so I'll let this be my last update (except to point out that you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said. Again, sigh.: First link says that A9 is sold as synthesizable IP (duh), not that Apple made modifications. Second that Apple integrated a separate DSP core (a completely unrelated subject). Third just shows that they did indeed synthesize it (any change of floor plan is going to produce an completely different layout for the same circuit). Is there any evidence at all that Apple made secret-sauce changes to the A9? There certainly aren't benchmarks of any kind to show it. Any new features? Anything at all that the posited "Apple A9" does differently than all the dozen others out there in the wild? No.

Aloisius 14y ago

Apple's mobile chips are just systems-on-a-chip packages of ARM and PowerVR chips that are then fabricated by Samsung. Apple has nowhere near the engineering capability to design a full CPU from scratch. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5

wmf 14y ago
Apple has nowhere near the engineering capability to design a full CPU from scratch. They did after buying PA Semi, but after Agnilux and Keller they may not now. In any case it appears they didn't use that talent that way.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]