6 ms·

Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

63 points by jugglinmike 2y ago

memonkey 2y ago
Cool. What do financials/shares look like? How does the company grow from just 6-8 people? I'm curious because this is what I've always wanted to start. I know that worker-owner/member orgs can exist at scale as well (Mondragon is one example) but the internals and growth is fascinating to me.
- bombcar 2y ago
  Credit unions are probably a pretty good place to start, as they're cooperative by nature but also operate similar to a normal banking corporation (expansion, etc).
tonymet 2y ago
What are some success stories of coops? I’m thinking United , REI , Winco. I’m curious why aren’t there more and why they generally have mediocre success if not failure
- TOGoS 2y ago
  Don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation! (which happens to be featured somewhat prominently in Kim Stanley Robinson novel 'The Ministry For The Future', which I am currently working my way through, and recommend for anyone who (a) likes coops and (b) is feeling overwhelmed by humanity's current situation)
- bombcar 2y ago
  Coops are basically geared toward mediocre success - because there's really no pressure to risk aiming for amazing/startup-style success. Ownership structure doesn't change many of the business risks, but coops can avoid the "expand or die" that sometimes normal companies experience. The largest coops are mutuals (think: insurance) and banks (think: credit union). Others exist in farmer's coops (Land o' Lakes, Dairy Farmers of America, etc). https://ncbaclusa.coop/blog/2022-world-cooperative-monitor-ranking-largest-cooperatives-now-available/ https://ncbaclusa.coop/blog/2022-world-cooperative-monitor-r... The hardest part is converting an existing corporation into a coop. The vast majority of coops are, like credit unions, relatively small and local. Instead of expanding to new areas, they often "split" into new areas, so you'd expect them to remain just below the noise threshold of the large multinationals.
  - kbxogdgkdhop 2y ago
    the phrase you're looking for to describe "mediocre success" is "sustainable business". expand or die is a bullshit concept employed by those more concerned with a quick buck than creating something lasting
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Exactly - it's like the startup vs "lifestyle business" (we have to keep making terms for what just used to be "business") discussion. The sad part is when something on the startup track fails as a startup but is a perfectly workable "lifestyle" business; but it can't switch tracks and instead plows along until destroyed.
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    > Coops are basically geared toward mediocre success - because there's really no pressure to risk aiming for amazing/startup-style success. I'm just straight-up offended at this. Co-ops are the job most people want. What you refer to as "amazing success" is dismantling our society and the people who run them appear to struggle to empathize with other humans. Granted, i'm sure coops can be equally antisocial and misanthropic. But growth surely isn't what we want to be optimizing for.
    - tonymet 2y ago
      are there any examples?
      - ForTheKidz 2y ago
        Enshittification is the most obvious one—we should be nationalizing efficient processes at the point they fail to yield further productivity gains. I don't really have much energy to argue with true believers today, so all I'll say is "read schumpeter dammit". For an industry allegedly founded by the dude I haven't met a single person working with VCs who's actually read the man. He would not consider today's America to have a healthy economy.
- andbberger 2y ago
  REI is not a worker coop they just cosplay as one.
  - tonymet 2y ago
    can you explain more to an outsider? i've been a lifelong member and they were very active in their COOP image in all the member comms
    - dv_dt 2y ago
      When you talk about coops, there is a distinction between a consumer coop and a worker coop. A consumer coop is generally where consumers band together to get better prices on consuming some product or group of products. A worker coop is where workers have ownership and make business decisions together. There are actually other coops too - e.g. farming coops are generally capital equipment sharing arrangements - think sharing ownership of the processing center for some crop. (Also ESOP worker coops - but I would say they generally are very weak on workers making significant decisions). REI is a consumer coop. At least some of their employees are actually unionized. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/rei-coop-union-busting/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/rei-coop-union-...
      - tonymet 2y ago
        this is a helpful way of looking at it. so it sounds like REI employees are not seeing any dividends?
        dv_dt 2y ago
        The REI workers are basically employees of a retail company that happens to be a coop. The coop part is for shopper/consumer members of people who buy things at REI.
        tonymet 2y ago
        i see thanks for explaining. i wish they were a bit more clear about that upfront. i had assumed the workers received some of the dividends as well, given their personal investment in the firm.
- jawns 2y ago
  US economic policy is not very favorable to co-ops. Cooperatives face complex tax structures that can be less advantageous compared to traditional corporations. Unlike C-corporations, which have clear tax advantages and deductions, cooperatives must navigate unique tax rules, such as Subchapter T of the IRS code, which governs patronage refunds. The tax code heavily favors investor-owned firms through incentives such as lower capital gains taxes and deductions for stock-based compensation, which cooperatives do not benefit from in the same way. Beyond that, banks and financial institutions are often hesitant to lend to cooperatives, as their ownership structure does not provide the same level of collateral or control as investor-owned firms. Government-backed loans and grants that support small businesses often don't adequately accommodate cooperatives. For instance, SBA loan programs historically have been difficult for cooperatives to access. And because co-ops are a niche business structure, many federal and state laws are designed with traditional corporate structures in mind, making it difficult for cooperatives to navigate compliance requirements. Cooperative incorporation laws vary by state, leading to inconsistent legal protections and administrative burdens.
  - vvpan 2y ago
    I have been extremely excited about cooperatives and doing research but good info is scattered (suggestions welcome!). From what I learned I will echo what you said - laws are stacked against cooperatives. In general the corporation, a structure that is centuries old, gets preferential treatment in all situations. It is like human development has been abolished in that domain in the 1800s and that is the status quo.
    - dv_dt 2y ago
      If you go into history of some nations, e.g. in some regions of Italy, coops go much farther back than the 1800s (the modern form comes about in the 1800s though) and there is an ecosystem of coops to develop and be supported by gov't and each other. In the US though the support legal, financial, and common understanding is much less mature.
  - karaterobot 2y ago
    I've been a part of several coops that fizzled out, and in none of these cases was tax law the culprit. Taxes and regulations suck, but I think there are deeper causes for the rarity of success in ventures like this, which are so appealing, and so often attempted. I don't know what they are, but I'd bet that some of the major causes are psychological and logistical in nature!
- mharig 2y ago
  [dead]
- klooney 2y ago
  REI is a purchaser coop, not an employee coop.
- pabs3 2y ago
  Igalia is a pretty successful open source tech consultancy coop. https://www.igalia.com/ https://www.igalia.com/
Tr3nton 2y ago
Browsing the barebones site and reading the Code of Conduct, I get the sense that political activism is a higher priority than engineering. There's a dedicated BLM page, where they honor George Floyd, but not the woman who was pistol-whipped by Floyd and his crew during an armed robbery, while the woman was home alone with her children.[1] I am aware that this is wrongthink. Americans rejected this worldview in the recent presidential election. While I have no issue with people advocating for their flavor of justice, I can't imagine this being the most savvy business decision in the current climate. I certainly would not be interested in hiring or working with an agency for whom caustic ideology appears to be more important than any other concern. Their hostility towards people with my skin color is palpable. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/george-floyd-america/policing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/george...
- text0404 2y ago
  hi, American here. i didn't reject this worldview - a portion of eligible voters rejected it. maybe their principles are more important to them than "current climate" and a profit motive? if you don't care for it, don't hire them - i'm sure they wouldn't want to work with you anyway as your values seem completely incompatible.
  - Tr3nton 2y ago
    [dead]
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  > While I have no issue with people advocating for their flavor of justice Really? Because I'm getting extremely strong "I have an issue with people advocating for this kind of justice" vibes from your comment here. Might want to take a look again if you didn't intend that.
  - Tr3nton 2y ago
    [dead]
happyopossum 2y ago
Announce your company is worker-owned in a blog posted by a guy whose profile pic shows him in a banana suit. Not the best way to build confidence in the new ownership...
- vvpan 2y ago
  I disagree. Stern corporate demeanor is a disadvantageous to a group that is trying to show personality.
  - rezmason 2y ago
    Besides, what's wrong with getting one's apparel at Banana Republic?
- billybuckwheat 2y ago
  Because business must always be boring and straightlaced to be taken seriously. I, for one, like a bit of frivolity in business.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  To me, a guy in a banana suit appears more confident than a gut in a business suit.
ecolonsmak 2y ago
anyone curious how employee ownership can work for large tech enterprises, a good starting point can be the material made available through the Beyster Institute - https://rady.ucsd.edu/why/centers/beyster/index.html https://rady.ucsd.edu/why/centers/beyster/index.html The founder built an $8 Billion dollar employee owned company, SAIC - and then allowed it to be carved up once he left having failed to ensure the culture of employee ownership was rooted as firmly with the board of directors as it was with the rank and file employees. I worked there for 12 years and saw firsthand the slide away from the ownership model, and it was instructive for me in my early career years.
TheMagicHorsey 2y ago
Never heard of these guys. Do they do good work? I know of several examples of worker-owned coups where the product is excellent: Cheeseboard pizza in Berkeley, Moog synthesizers, etc. I've always wondered whether this model could extend to cutting edge technology, where the contributions of a few extremely talented individuals could be the decisive factor. That's not to say Bocoup is limited by this question, because it could be their work does not require any cutting edge research, but instead is deploying existing stable technologies in an artisan/workman/guildsman like professional manner--which I think is the sweet spot for worker-owned/worker-directed activities.

63 points by jugglinmike 2y ago

Cool. What do financials/shares look like? How does the company grow from just 6-8 people? I'm curious because this is what I've always wanted to start. I know that worker-owner/member orgs can exist at scale as well (Mondragon is one example) but the internals and growth is fascinating to me.

bombcar 2y ago
Credit unions are probably a pretty good place to start, as they're cooperative by nature but also operate similar to a normal banking corporation (expansion, etc).

tonymet 2y ago

What are some success stories of coops? I’m thinking United , REI , Winco. I’m curious why aren’t there more and why they generally have mediocre success if not failure

TOGoS 2y ago
Don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation! (which happens to be featured somewhat prominently in Kim Stanley Robinson novel 'The Ministry For The Future', which I am currently working my way through, and recommend for anyone who (a) likes coops and (b) is feeling overwhelmed by humanity's current situation)
bombcar 2y ago
Coops are basically geared toward mediocre success - because there's really no pressure to risk aiming for amazing/startup-style success. Ownership structure doesn't change many of the business risks, but coops can avoid the "expand or die" that sometimes normal companies experience. The largest coops are mutuals (think: insurance) and banks (think: credit union). Others exist in farmer's coops (Land o' Lakes, Dairy Farmers of America, etc). https://ncbaclusa.coop/blog/2022-world-cooperative-monitor-ranking-largest-cooperatives-now-available/ https://ncbaclusa.coop/blog/2022-world-cooperative-monitor-r... The hardest part is converting an existing corporation into a coop. The vast majority of coops are, like credit unions, relatively small and local. Instead of expanding to new areas, they often "split" into new areas, so you'd expect them to remain just below the noise threshold of the large multinationals.
- kbxogdgkdhop 2y ago
  the phrase you're looking for to describe "mediocre success" is "sustainable business". expand or die is a bullshit concept employed by those more concerned with a quick buck than creating something lasting
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Exactly - it's like the startup vs "lifestyle business" (we have to keep making terms for what just used to be "business") discussion. The sad part is when something on the startup track fails as a startup but is a perfectly workable "lifestyle" business; but it can't switch tracks and instead plows along until destroyed.
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  > Coops are basically geared toward mediocre success - because there's really no pressure to risk aiming for amazing/startup-style success. I'm just straight-up offended at this. Co-ops are the job most people want. What you refer to as "amazing success" is dismantling our society and the people who run them appear to struggle to empathize with other humans. Granted, i'm sure coops can be equally antisocial and misanthropic. But growth surely isn't what we want to be optimizing for.
  - tonymet 2y ago
    are there any examples?
    - ForTheKidz 2y ago
      Enshittification is the most obvious one—we should be nationalizing efficient processes at the point they fail to yield further productivity gains. I don't really have much energy to argue with true believers today, so all I'll say is "read schumpeter dammit". For an industry allegedly founded by the dude I haven't met a single person working with VCs who's actually read the man. He would not consider today's America to have a healthy economy.
andbberger 2y ago
REI is not a worker coop they just cosplay as one.
- tonymet 2y ago
  can you explain more to an outsider? i've been a lifelong member and they were very active in their COOP image in all the member comms
  - dv_dt 2y ago
    When you talk about coops, there is a distinction between a consumer coop and a worker coop. A consumer coop is generally where consumers band together to get better prices on consuming some product or group of products. A worker coop is where workers have ownership and make business decisions together. There are actually other coops too - e.g. farming coops are generally capital equipment sharing arrangements - think sharing ownership of the processing center for some crop. (Also ESOP worker coops - but I would say they generally are very weak on workers making significant decisions). REI is a consumer coop. At least some of their employees are actually unionized. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/rei-coop-union-busting/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/02/rei-coop-union-...
    - tonymet 2y ago
      this is a helpful way of looking at it. so it sounds like REI employees are not seeing any dividends?
      - dv_dt 2y ago
        The REI workers are basically employees of a retail company that happens to be a coop. The coop part is for shopper/consumer members of people who buy things at REI.
        tonymet 2y ago
        i see thanks for explaining. i wish they were a bit more clear about that upfront. i had assumed the workers received some of the dividends as well, given their personal investment in the firm.
jawns 2y ago
US economic policy is not very favorable to co-ops. Cooperatives face complex tax structures that can be less advantageous compared to traditional corporations. Unlike C-corporations, which have clear tax advantages and deductions, cooperatives must navigate unique tax rules, such as Subchapter T of the IRS code, which governs patronage refunds. The tax code heavily favors investor-owned firms through incentives such as lower capital gains taxes and deductions for stock-based compensation, which cooperatives do not benefit from in the same way. Beyond that, banks and financial institutions are often hesitant to lend to cooperatives, as their ownership structure does not provide the same level of collateral or control as investor-owned firms. Government-backed loans and grants that support small businesses often don't adequately accommodate cooperatives. For instance, SBA loan programs historically have been difficult for cooperatives to access. And because co-ops are a niche business structure, many federal and state laws are designed with traditional corporate structures in mind, making it difficult for cooperatives to navigate compliance requirements. Cooperative incorporation laws vary by state, leading to inconsistent legal protections and administrative burdens.
- vvpan 2y ago
  I have been extremely excited about cooperatives and doing research but good info is scattered (suggestions welcome!). From what I learned I will echo what you said - laws are stacked against cooperatives. In general the corporation, a structure that is centuries old, gets preferential treatment in all situations. It is like human development has been abolished in that domain in the 1800s and that is the status quo.
  - dv_dt 2y ago
    If you go into history of some nations, e.g. in some regions of Italy, coops go much farther back than the 1800s (the modern form comes about in the 1800s though) and there is an ecosystem of coops to develop and be supported by gov't and each other. In the US though the support legal, financial, and common understanding is much less mature.
- karaterobot 2y ago
  I've been a part of several coops that fizzled out, and in none of these cases was tax law the culprit. Taxes and regulations suck, but I think there are deeper causes for the rarity of success in ventures like this, which are so appealing, and so often attempted. I don't know what they are, but I'd bet that some of the major causes are psychological and logistical in nature!
mharig 2y ago
[dead]
klooney 2y ago
REI is a purchaser coop, not an employee coop.
pabs3 2y ago
Igalia is a pretty successful open source tech consultancy coop. https://www.igalia.com/ https://www.igalia.com/

Tr3nton 2y ago

Browsing the barebones site and reading the Code of Conduct, I get the sense that political activism is a higher priority than engineering. There's a dedicated BLM page, where they honor George Floyd, but not the woman who was pistol-whipped by Floyd and his crew during an armed robbery, while the woman was home alone with her children.[1] I am aware that this is wrongthink. Americans rejected this worldview in the recent presidential election. While I have no issue with people advocating for their flavor of justice, I can't imagine this being the most savvy business decision in the current climate. I certainly would not be interested in hiring or working with an agency for whom caustic ideology appears to be more important than any other concern. Their hostility towards people with my skin color is palpable. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/george-floyd-america/policing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/george...

text0404 2y ago
hi, American here. i didn't reject this worldview - a portion of eligible voters rejected it. maybe their principles are more important to them than "current climate" and a profit motive? if you don't care for it, don't hire them - i'm sure they wouldn't want to work with you anyway as your values seem completely incompatible.
- Tr3nton 2y ago
  [dead]
giraffe_lady 2y ago
> While I have no issue with people advocating for their flavor of justice Really? Because I'm getting extremely strong "I have an issue with people advocating for this kind of justice" vibes from your comment here. Might want to take a look again if you didn't intend that.
- Tr3nton 2y ago
  [dead]

happyopossum 2y ago

Announce your company is worker-owned in a blog posted by a guy whose profile pic shows him in a banana suit. Not the best way to build confidence in the new ownership...

vvpan 2y ago
I disagree. Stern corporate demeanor is a disadvantageous to a group that is trying to show personality.
- rezmason 2y ago
  Besides, what's wrong with getting one's apparel at Banana Republic?
billybuckwheat 2y ago
Because business must always be boring and straightlaced to be taken seriously. I, for one, like a bit of frivolity in business.
MisterTea 2y ago
To me, a guy in a banana suit appears more confident than a gut in a business suit.

ecolonsmak 2y ago

anyone curious how employee ownership can work for large tech enterprises, a good starting point can be the material made available through the Beyster Institute - https://rady.ucsd.edu/why/centers/beyster/index.html https://rady.ucsd.edu/why/centers/beyster/index.html The founder built an $8 Billion dollar employee owned company, SAIC - and then allowed it to be carved up once he left having failed to ensure the culture of employee ownership was rooted as firmly with the board of directors as it was with the rank and file employees. I worked there for 12 years and saw firsthand the slide away from the ownership model, and it was instructive for me in my early career years.

TheMagicHorsey 2y ago

Never heard of these guys. Do they do good work? I know of several examples of worker-owned coups where the product is excellent: Cheeseboard pizza in Berkeley, Moog synthesizers, etc. I've always wondered whether this model could extend to cutting edge technology, where the contributions of a few extremely talented individuals could be the decisive factor. That's not to say Bocoup is limited by this question, because it could be their work does not require any cutting edge research, but instead is deploying existing stable technologies in an artisan/workman/guildsman like professional manner--which I think is the sweet spot for worker-owned/worker-directed activities.