6 ms·

This kind of diatribe -- along with the PadMapper debacle -- simply makes the participants look like naive entitled children. You don't understand why Craig wo

This kind of diatribe -- along with the PadMapper debacle -- simply makes the participants look like naive entitled children. You don't understand why Craig won't play in your sandbox, berate him for not doing so, shout at the world that CRAIG IS A MEANIE. Yet, Craigslist is phenomenally successful, and has an enviable organization model that has allowed them to stay true to what matters to them. The fact that these things don't matter to you does not make them wrong. Craigslist has a "lifestyle" business with revenue numbers that would make any startup green with envy, and it seems to me that you -- and others like you -- can't get your head around the fact that Craig (and Craigslist) is so successful, and yet they do not want to play your game. If you think Craigslist sucks, then either make a better one, or figure out how to work with Craigslist within a framework that does not run counter to their established ethos. That probably means no venture capital, and no standard corporate organizational model. Simply taking what you want -- or haranguing them openly for not operating the way you would like -- is simply childish petulance.

jbooth 14y ago
The point is that, due to network effects and first-mover advantage, it's way harder to displace craigslist than building a better product. Now, that's not illegal on craig/craigslist's part, but he can either be an openness-advocating philanthropreneur, as he tends to brand himself, or he can be a lockdown value extractor with a legal team, as it seems they're on their way to becoming. Can't be both.
- vampirechicken 14y ago
  Oh, boo hoo! He did the hard work. He earned the first mover advantage. Go be disruptive without being a thief. Make a compelling product that steals his users, not his data.
- flatline3 14y ago
  > Now, that's not illegal on craig/craigslist's part, but he can either be an openness-advocating philanthropreneur, as he tends to brand himself, or he can be a lockdown value extractor with a legal team, as it seems they're on their way to becoming. Can't be both. So say The Police Of Moral Rectitude? I don't really see the point here. Craigslist isn't actively harming the industry, they're just running their own businesses. How they choose to do so is their own concern, and they have no obligation to give their business away to people that want to replace them.
IanDrake 14y ago
>This kind of diatribe... >If you think Craigslist sucks, then either make a better one The first step to making a better one is to realize there is a problem with the current one. The second step is to make everyone else realize there is a problem with the current one (by making a big stink out of it). The third step is to make a better one. I think we're just getting to step two.
- flatline3 14y ago
  > The second step is to make everyone else realize there is a problem with the current one (by making a big stink out of it). If that's true, then the conversation would be about the product, not about how Craiglist's disinterest in bootstrapping other people's businesses just isn't fair.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    That's the difference between a product that is built as a castle and building an product that supports an ecosystem. These are design and business choices for the product. The interoperability of a device is not a separate consideration from it's design and construction, and in the same way, the accessibility methods available for a web service is not just a pure business decision, but is also a fundamental element of the products design. There is also no rule to say that ideas of fairness cannot be included as part of a product specification.
    - flatline3 14y ago
      What's your point? Fairness to whom? Why is Craigslist under any obligation to be "fair"? They're especially under no obligation to define "fair" entirely according to the whims of those who would like to grab a piece of craigslist's pie.
      - ktizo 14y ago
        I'm not saying they are under an obligation to be fair, just pointing out that considerations of fairness are part of a conversation about the product. There is no special dividing wall here that excludes interoperability policy from everything else, when it comes to making a criticism of a service.

jbooth 14y ago

The point is that, due to network effects and first-mover advantage, it's way harder to displace craigslist than building a better product. Now, that's not illegal on craig/craigslist's part, but he can either be an openness-advocating philanthropreneur, as he tends to brand himself, or he can be a lockdown value extractor with a legal team, as it seems they're on their way to becoming. Can't be both.

vampirechicken 14y ago
Oh, boo hoo! He did the hard work. He earned the first mover advantage. Go be disruptive without being a thief. Make a compelling product that steals his users, not his data.
flatline3 14y ago
> Now, that's not illegal on craig/craigslist's part, but he can either be an openness-advocating philanthropreneur, as he tends to brand himself, or he can be a lockdown value extractor with a legal team, as it seems they're on their way to becoming. Can't be both. So say The Police Of Moral Rectitude? I don't really see the point here. Craigslist isn't actively harming the industry, they're just running their own businesses. How they choose to do so is their own concern, and they have no obligation to give their business away to people that want to replace them.

IanDrake 14y ago

>This kind of diatribe... >If you think Craigslist sucks, then either make a better one The first step to making a better one is to realize there is a problem with the current one. The second step is to make everyone else realize there is a problem with the current one (by making a big stink out of it). The third step is to make a better one. I think we're just getting to step two.

flatline3 14y ago
> The second step is to make everyone else realize there is a problem with the current one (by making a big stink out of it). If that's true, then the conversation would be about the product, not about how Craiglist's disinterest in bootstrapping other people's businesses just isn't fair.
- ktizo 14y ago
  That's the difference between a product that is built as a castle and building an product that supports an ecosystem. These are design and business choices for the product. The interoperability of a device is not a separate consideration from it's design and construction, and in the same way, the accessibility methods available for a web service is not just a pure business decision, but is also a fundamental element of the products design. There is also no rule to say that ideas of fairness cannot be included as part of a product specification.
  - flatline3 14y ago
    What's your point? Fairness to whom? Why is Craigslist under any obligation to be "fair"? They're especially under no obligation to define "fair" entirely according to the whims of those who would like to grab a piece of craigslist's pie.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      I'm not saying they are under an obligation to be fair, just pointing out that considerations of fairness are part of a conversation about the product. There is no special dividing wall here that excludes interoperability policy from everything else, when it comes to making a criticism of a service.