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I drank the "creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists" kool-aid back in ~2013 sometime, and got myself a first Macbook when I w

by diggan 2y ago

I drank the "creating products that prioritize user experience over feature checklists" kool-aid back in ~2013 sometime, and got myself a first Macbook when I worked at a software startup the first time. While it certainly gave a more "premium" impression in terms of hardware/UI/UX for the first few years, around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time. Even basic UX like "Can still see navigation map on CarPlay when someone calls you" seems to be just not thought of at all, or not being able to move the cursor left/right because the current iPhone keyboard mode only allows number. There are a thousands of these tiny cuts that just makes it such a pain to use daily. Which is a darn shame, because the hardware is truly amazing, from everything from the displays, to keyboard and trackpads, to the general feeling and the CPU. But the software experience been so shit for the last decade that it's hard to justify going back.

varenc 2y ago
What Linux CarPlay alternative do you use?
- diggan 2y ago
  I don't, I still use my horrible iPhone 12 Mini for CarPlay. Waiting for it to either get too old to get updates, or for it to break before I move back to Android, I guess.
  - yeison 2y ago
    So given the choice you still choose CarPlay.
rcarmo 2y ago
The CarPlay "limitation" is likely to be a road safety/liability issue.
- diggan 2y ago
  Yes, I agree. If I'm navigating, then an incoming call shouldn't block the entire screen with the avatar of who is calling, the map has to remain visible at all times. If even one person from Apple would have tested the scenario of "I'm navigating with a map and someone calls me", they'd see how dangerous their current implementation is. I have had to reject/hang up so many calls because someone calls exactly when I'm trying to figure out where to go by looking at the map. In my mind, what Apple is currently doing should be outright illegal.
  - liamwestray 2y ago
    Preach!
capl 2y ago
Nothing wrong with the "creating products that prioritize user experience over features" - or more accurately what Jobs said: create products that start with the user experience and the user’s needs first and then work your way to the tech (as far as I remember) The opposite approach is starting with some tech and then trying to find a use for it, e.g. folding phones, second 1/2 screen on laptop, etc, instead of trying to actually create a usable, quality trackpad for instance. The critique is still valid: Apple, for their software, seem to not have the same focus on quality as Jobs once insisted on. Their physical products are very much still top notch, and the products on the whole are still developed with this mindset as far as I’m concerned. It’s just the software quality that has taken a hit for some reason.
- legitster 2y ago
  Can I ask what the fascination with the Apple trackpad is? My other daily driver is a Thinkpad and I actually vastly prefer using the smaller one on it. You're not flinging your wrist across the zipcode and the clicks are more tactile.
  - philistine 2y ago
    ... I'm sorry but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You might prefer a smaller trackpad, but then why? Just increase the sensitivity to reduce your finger movements. Anyway, Apple's trackpad is good because it perfectly captures intent, whatever the situation and the number of fingers. It's flawless. You got half your palm on the side of the trackpad while writing? Nope, not picked up. You quickly flick with half your palm on there? Boom, got it. Five finger gesture? No prob fam.
    - legitster 2y ago
      ...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives. I'm not familiar with all of the trackpad gestures, but that's part of my big frustration with macOS in general - discoverability absolutely sucks. Half of the stuff I need to do is hidden behind a set of arcane keystrokes that I am apparently supposed to memorize.
IgorPartola 2y ago
Personal pet peeve: CarPlay not pausing what you are playing when you hit the infotainment power button is really dumb.
- eddieroger 2y ago
  That's not been my experience. If I hit power off on my volume knob, it's effectively pause to CarPlay. Does your car treat it more like mute?
  - IgorPartola 2y ago
    Yeah both cars where I have had it treat it as mute. Maybe a setting I guess.
- garyrob 2y ago
  It pauses for me when I hit the mute switch though. I pretty much never power it off.
Workaccount2 2y ago
I can assure you that if you "went back to linux" you are the furthest thing from the target audience you can be. Not to downplay your experience, but it is almost certainly not what Apple uses for user feedback.
- diggan 2y ago
  I went back to Linux because I can at least decide when I'm ready for updates that changes my workflow. Neither Windows nor macOS gives me that experience. I wouldn't put Linux on a pedestral when it comes to UX/UI/design, but at least it doesn't rugpull me once a year (or more often with Windows) with forced updates. As someone who cares deeply about UX that doesn't get in the way and allows professionals to do their work effectively, I'd be a hardcore Apple fanboy if the UX was actually good for that.
  - gattilorenz 2y ago
    I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.
    - diggan 2y ago
      > I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind. I remember being nagged about upgrading to the latest OS version at least once a day if not more often. Opening my wife's laptop just now, I saw another one of those notifications, begging to update where the only options were "Restart" or "Later".
      - ndiddy 2y ago
        This is one of my least favorite aspects of modern UI design practices, the user doesn't have any agency. Everything's a choice between "Yes" and "ask again later".
      - quesera 2y ago
        The update notification has a close icon when you hover the popup window. I use it all the time. It'll ask me again later (a few days? a week?), but it won't make any changes immediately, nor will it schedule any changes.
catlover76 2y ago
> around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time. Honestly, I have difficulty believing someone could find these kinds of issues to be less of a problem on Linux than on Mac
- diggan 2y ago
  If you haven't tried out the various Linux desktop environments for a long try, give it a try yourself. I'm having a way more stable experience with Gnome than I ever had with Windows or macOS the last decade or so, especially when I can chose when I want to upgrade, and I don't get nagged about it once a day. But before that, I'd agree with you, it would have be stupid to prefer anything Linux over OSX or Windows, back when they were rock-solid. But today?
- sunshowers 2y ago
  I've been using KDE for around a year. It has a few bugs but overall it's much better in my experience than either Windows or macOS. KDE 6.2 and above have been really marvelous — I actually donated $100 (I think) to them because I was really happy with the work they were doing. KDE actually has working focus stealing prevention!
- thedanbob 2y ago
  I've encountered fewer show-stopping bugs in Linux than macOS lately. And of the software that I use on both, the macOS versions have more problems. Honestly, the main thing holding me back from replacing my M1 MBA with a linux laptop is the wonderful speed and battery life. If the software problems get bad enough to negate those I'm switching.
ohgr 2y ago
I've got a Polestar 2. The map is shown inside the dashboard. The calls appear on the centre display. I think it's a limitation of the vehicle's implementation.
- diggan 2y ago
  It is not, Android Auto still shows me the map while there is an incoming call, which CarPlay doesn't, on the same car. CarPlay's "incoming call" widget/popup blocks the entire view, I think Android Auto just displays something in a corner or something.
karmakaze 2y ago
Apple's behavior makes sense when you realize that Apple caters to potential customers more than current ones. Their products are made to demo well to prospective customers. Every Apple product owner/user is inadvertently doing sales demos to onlookers.

by diggan 2y ago

varenc 2y ago

What Linux CarPlay alternative do you use?

diggan 2y ago
I don't, I still use my horrible iPhone 12 Mini for CarPlay. Waiting for it to either get too old to get updates, or for it to break before I move back to Android, I guess.
- yeison 2y ago
  So given the choice you still choose CarPlay.

rcarmo 2y ago

The CarPlay "limitation" is likely to be a road safety/liability issue.

diggan 2y ago
Yes, I agree. If I'm navigating, then an incoming call shouldn't block the entire screen with the avatar of who is calling, the map has to remain visible at all times. If even one person from Apple would have tested the scenario of "I'm navigating with a map and someone calls me", they'd see how dangerous their current implementation is. I have had to reject/hang up so many calls because someone calls exactly when I'm trying to figure out where to go by looking at the map. In my mind, what Apple is currently doing should be outright illegal.
- liamwestray 2y ago
  Preach!

capl 2y ago

Nothing wrong with the "creating products that prioritize user experience over features" - or more accurately what Jobs said: create products that start with the user experience and the user’s needs first and then work your way to the tech (as far as I remember) The opposite approach is starting with some tech and then trying to find a use for it, e.g. folding phones, second 1/2 screen on laptop, etc, instead of trying to actually create a usable, quality trackpad for instance. The critique is still valid: Apple, for their software, seem to not have the same focus on quality as Jobs once insisted on. Their physical products are very much still top notch, and the products on the whole are still developed with this mindset as far as I’m concerned. It’s just the software quality that has taken a hit for some reason.

legitster 2y ago
Can I ask what the fascination with the Apple trackpad is? My other daily driver is a Thinkpad and I actually vastly prefer using the smaller one on it. You're not flinging your wrist across the zipcode and the clicks are more tactile.
- philistine 2y ago
  ... I'm sorry but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You might prefer a smaller trackpad, but then why? Just increase the sensitivity to reduce your finger movements. Anyway, Apple's trackpad is good because it perfectly captures intent, whatever the situation and the number of fingers. It's flawless. You got half your palm on the side of the trackpad while writing? Nope, not picked up. You quickly flick with half your palm on there? Boom, got it. Five finger gesture? No prob fam.
  - legitster 2y ago
    ...unless that intent is to right click something. In which case I have to move across the vast expanse of trackpad to find the secret magic area on where it lives. I'm not familiar with all of the trackpad gestures, but that's part of my big frustration with macOS in general - discoverability absolutely sucks. Half of the stuff I need to do is hidden behind a set of arcane keystrokes that I am apparently supposed to memorize.

IgorPartola 2y ago

Personal pet peeve: CarPlay not pausing what you are playing when you hit the infotainment power button is really dumb.

eddieroger 2y ago
That's not been my experience. If I hit power off on my volume knob, it's effectively pause to CarPlay. Does your car treat it more like mute?
- IgorPartola 2y ago
  Yeah both cars where I have had it treat it as mute. Maybe a setting I guess.
garyrob 2y ago
It pauses for me when I hit the mute switch though. I pretty much never power it off.

Workaccount2 2y ago

I can assure you that if you "went back to linux" you are the furthest thing from the target audience you can be. Not to downplay your experience, but it is almost certainly not what Apple uses for user feedback.

diggan 2y ago
I went back to Linux because I can at least decide when I'm ready for updates that changes my workflow. Neither Windows nor macOS gives me that experience. I wouldn't put Linux on a pedestral when it comes to UX/UI/design, but at least it doesn't rugpull me once a year (or more often with Windows) with forced updates. As someone who cares deeply about UX that doesn't get in the way and allows professionals to do their work effectively, I'd be a hardcore Apple fanboy if the UX was actually good for that.
- gattilorenz 2y ago
  I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind.
  - diggan 2y ago
    > I’m not sure where you saw forced updates. I’m usually 2 to 3 major versions of macOS behind. I remember being nagged about upgrading to the latest OS version at least once a day if not more often. Opening my wife's laptop just now, I saw another one of those notifications, begging to update where the only options were "Restart" or "Later".
    - ndiddy 2y ago
      This is one of my least favorite aspects of modern UI design practices, the user doesn't have any agency. Everything's a choice between "Yes" and "ask again later".
    - quesera 2y ago
      The update notification has a close icon when you hover the popup window. I use it all the time. It'll ask me again later (a few days? a week?), but it won't make any changes immediately, nor will it schedule any changes.

catlover76 2y ago

> around 2016 I had to move back to Linux because the software experience and the user experience is just too poor, outright buggy and changes all the time. Honestly, I have difficulty believing someone could find these kinds of issues to be less of a problem on Linux than on Mac

diggan 2y ago
If you haven't tried out the various Linux desktop environments for a long try, give it a try yourself. I'm having a way more stable experience with Gnome than I ever had with Windows or macOS the last decade or so, especially when I can chose when I want to upgrade, and I don't get nagged about it once a day. But before that, I'd agree with you, it would have be stupid to prefer anything Linux over OSX or Windows, back when they were rock-solid. But today?
sunshowers 2y ago
I've been using KDE for around a year. It has a few bugs but overall it's much better in my experience than either Windows or macOS. KDE 6.2 and above have been really marvelous — I actually donated $100 (I think) to them because I was really happy with the work they were doing. KDE actually has working focus stealing prevention!
thedanbob 2y ago
I've encountered fewer show-stopping bugs in Linux than macOS lately. And of the software that I use on both, the macOS versions have more problems. Honestly, the main thing holding me back from replacing my M1 MBA with a linux laptop is the wonderful speed and battery life. If the software problems get bad enough to negate those I'm switching.

ohgr 2y ago

I've got a Polestar 2. The map is shown inside the dashboard. The calls appear on the centre display. I think it's a limitation of the vehicle's implementation.

diggan 2y ago
It is not, Android Auto still shows me the map while there is an incoming call, which CarPlay doesn't, on the same car. CarPlay's "incoming call" widget/popup blocks the entire view, I think Android Auto just displays something in a corner or something.

karmakaze 2y ago

Apple's behavior makes sense when you realize that Apple caters to potential customers more than current ones. Their products are made to demo well to prospective customers. Every Apple product owner/user is inadvertently doing sales demos to onlookers.