4 ms·

It's hard to justify this over an M4 Pro 14" MBP unless you absolutely must have 100% compatibility with Windows or Linux. The Framework @ $2,100 vs $2,000 M4

It's hard to justify this over an M4 Pro 14" MBP unless you absolutely must have 100% compatibility with Windows or Linux. The Framework @ $2,100 vs $2,000 M4 Pro 14": * Significantly slower CPU, GPU, NPU * Significantly less efficient, with way worse battery life * Performance declines by as much as 50% as soon as you unplug it * Way worse screen, with only 60hz * Fewer ports * Worse keyboard and trackpad * Thicker * $100 more expensive * Way less resale value * You can say repairability but Macs are tanks and last significantly longer than the average Windows PC and often get a second life after resale * You do get 8GB more RAM (but much slower), and 512GB more storage I guess. Personally, when people say Windows laptops offer more value. I look around and I always find that comparable quality Windows laptops are just as expensive or even more expensive than Macs.

eightysixfour 2y ago
I don’t find the frame.work laptops to be particularly “value” oriented, you are paying a decent chunk for modularity/repairability. Something like the $2k price point of the Asus G14 line is going to stomp all over the Mac in GPU performance, scores similarly to the base M4 in multicore CPU performance, and is using lpDDR5X so the memory performance is quite high as well. The aesthetics leave a lot to be desired but…
Piribedil 2y ago
Getting 8gb and 512gb more on the mac is a several hundreds markup. This highlights the insanity of the pricing of Apple products. They could annihilate the pc laptop market with decent ram and storage pricing, but it wouldn't be as profitable. The pc laptop market still exist because Apple don't care. The innovation value of Apple Silicon is severely underestimated. I don't own any Apple products but have bookmarked the Asahi Wiki.
- jakogut 2y ago
  > They could annihilate the pc laptop market with decent ram and storage pricing I wouldn't be so sure about that. Though their hardware is capable, Apple has very intentionally left behind large markets of software with specific choices they've made, including dropping support for 32-bit legacy applications, developing their own proprietary graphics API in the form of Metal, deprecating OpenGL, and refusing to support portable, cross-platform APIs like Vulkan. Apple computers compete against Apple computers, not PCs in general.
dpc_01234 2y ago
Actually owning your laptop instead of being locked in a garden/prison managed by a soulless corporation is a must for me. Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk. Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac. So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice. Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers!
- aurareturn 2y ago
  Actually owning your laptop instead of being locked in a garden/prison managed by a soulless corporation is a must for me. macOS is open. Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk. If battery life doesn't matter to you, then surely speed does right? M4 Pro is roughly 56% faster in ST and about the same in MT. Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac. Even after emulation, Apple Silicon is often still faster. The fastest Windows laptop is actually an M4 Max running Parallels. So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice. Agreed. I think most people prefer macOS as a dev OS to Linux. Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers! Framework's parts are known to be very expensive. It's probably cheaper to simply sell your Apple Silicon laptop (which always has high resale value) and simply buy a new one.
Havoc 2y ago
Some of those stats look a bit shaky. Npu on the Mac has less tops. The ram is lower clocked and I doubt the gpu one too frankly. Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in
- aurareturn 2y ago
  Some of those stats look a bit shaky. Npu on the Mac has less tops. The ram is lower clocked and I doubt the gpu one too frankly. M4 has by far the fastest NPU of any laptop according to Geekbench. https://browser.geekbench.com/ai-benchmarks https://browser.geekbench.com/ai-benchmarks Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in In terms of value, the M4 Pro is still comfortably ahead. The difference in speed, efficiency, component quality, and overall package is worth the value.
eadmund 2y ago
Linux compatibility is an absolute, hard requirement.
marssaxman 2y ago
That's a strange comparison; the Framework laptop is for people who want a machine they can reconfigure and upgrade. It's not even trying to compete on price, any more than the Macbook is competing in terms of modularity. One of my coworkers has a Framework laptop, uses it daily, and loves it. I'll probably look into getting one myself someday, if my Thinkpad ever gets around to dying. The Macbook would not be an option for me, as Linux support is a firm requirement; I lost my stomach for Apple's paternalism years ago.
jckahn 2y ago
I am personally comfortable with all of these tradeoffs if it means good Linux support.

eightysixfour 2y ago

I don’t find the frame.work laptops to be particularly “value” oriented, you are paying a decent chunk for modularity/repairability. Something like the $2k price point of the Asus G14 line is going to stomp all over the Mac in GPU performance, scores similarly to the base M4 in multicore CPU performance, and is using lpDDR5X so the memory performance is quite high as well. The aesthetics leave a lot to be desired but…

Piribedil 2y ago

Getting 8gb and 512gb more on the mac is a several hundreds markup. This highlights the insanity of the pricing of Apple products. They could annihilate the pc laptop market with decent ram and storage pricing, but it wouldn't be as profitable. The pc laptop market still exist because Apple don't care. The innovation value of Apple Silicon is severely underestimated. I don't own any Apple products but have bookmarked the Asahi Wiki.

jakogut 2y ago
> They could annihilate the pc laptop market with decent ram and storage pricing I wouldn't be so sure about that. Though their hardware is capable, Apple has very intentionally left behind large markets of software with specific choices they've made, including dropping support for 32-bit legacy applications, developing their own proprietary graphics API in the form of Metal, deprecating OpenGL, and refusing to support portable, cross-platform APIs like Vulkan. Apple computers compete against Apple computers, not PCs in general.

dpc_01234 2y ago

Actually owning your laptop instead of being locked in a garden/prison managed by a soulless corporation is a must for me. Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk. Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac. So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice. Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers!

aurareturn 2y ago
Actually owning your laptop instead of being locked in a garden/prison managed by a soulless corporation is a must for me. macOS is open. Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk. If battery life doesn't matter to you, then surely speed does right? M4 Pro is roughly 56% faster in ST and about the same in MT. Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac. Even after emulation, Apple Silicon is often still faster. The fastest Windows laptop is actually an M4 Max running Parallels. So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice. Agreed. I think most people prefer macOS as a dev OS to Linux. Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers! Framework's parts are known to be very expensive. It's probably cheaper to simply sell your Apple Silicon laptop (which always has high resale value) and simply buy a new one.

Havoc 2y ago

Some of those stats look a bit shaky. Npu on the Mac has less tops. The ram is lower clocked and I doubt the gpu one too frankly. Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in

aurareturn 2y ago
Some of those stats look a bit shaky. Npu on the Mac has less tops. The ram is lower clocked and I doubt the gpu one too frankly. M4 has by far the fastest NPU of any laptop according to Geekbench. https://browser.geekbench.com/ai-benchmarks https://browser.geekbench.com/ai-benchmarks Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in In terms of value, the M4 Pro is still comfortably ahead. The difference in speed, efficiency, component quality, and overall package is worth the value.

eadmund 2y ago

Linux compatibility is an absolute, hard requirement.

marssaxman 2y ago

That's a strange comparison; the Framework laptop is for people who want a machine they can reconfigure and upgrade. It's not even trying to compete on price, any more than the Macbook is competing in terms of modularity. One of my coworkers has a Framework laptop, uses it daily, and loves it. I'll probably look into getting one myself someday, if my Thinkpad ever gets around to dying. The Macbook would not be an option for me, as Linux support is a firm requirement; I lost my stomach for Apple's paternalism years ago.

jckahn 2y ago

I am personally comfortable with all of these tradeoffs if it means good Linux support.