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The term "NIMBY" is usually used for projects that the NIMBY supports, or at least acknowledges the need for, but just doesn't want in their back yard: power pl

The term "NIMBY" is usually used for projects that the NIMBY supports, or at least acknowledges the need for, but just doesn't want in their back yard: power plants, halfway houses, low income housing, etc. Using NIMBY for people that don't want the equivalent of a privately owned airport dropped into their neighbourhood seems an abuse of the word.

fragmede 2y ago
Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? If I could get my packages today, instead of two days later, and there's just this humming noise outside because of it? Some people would prefer the package sooner. NIMBYs are anti-progress because of impacts to their lives and their neighborhood. The power plant needs to exist, but arguably does it? What's wrong with the old one? Why do they need to build a new one? Halfway houses and low income housing doesn't need to exist any more than a warehouse does. This one happens to be owned by Amazon, but where you want the distribution center for goods to exist, and who do you want to have own it? That this Amazon warehouse makes more noise than other warehouses and they don't want it there is definition NIMBYism.
- TheRealQueequeg 2y ago
  gotta believe you're playing devil's advocate and not in genuine belief that an amazon warehouse > low income housing
  - fragmede 2y ago
    I didn't say that amazon warehouses > low income housing, but I've edited my comment to make it more clear. Warehouses and distribution centers need to exist, even if they don't use drones.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      This is your opinion, not fact. Local communities can disallow them through zoning and planning, regardless of what consumers want. YIMBY for housing, NIMBY for whatever the Amazon paperclip maximizer wants.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Sure, it's an opinion that goods need to go to warehouses before being distributed to supermarkets. what industries are permitted in your utopia?
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Industries local citizens want in their area. If you don't have the votes, you don't get the industrial zoning, warehouses, data centers, etc. Go elsewhere.
        fragmede 2y ago
        Right. Some else's back yard.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Right, not in my backyard. If they want to defend theirs, that is their choice. If they don't, and they want the noise, the traffic, and the air pollutants, I encourage them to seek these projects for their backyard. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-50000-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-50000-0 > Regulators, environmental advocates, and community groups in the United States (U.S.) are concerned about air pollution associated with the proliferating e-commerce and warehousing industries. Nationwide datasets of warehouse locations, traffic, and satellite observations of the traffic-related pollutant nitrogen dioxide (NO2) provide a unique capability to evaluate the air quality and environmental equity impacts of these geographically-dispersed emission sources. Here, we show that the nearly 150,000 warehouses in the U.S. worsen local traffic-related air pollution with an average near-warehouse NO2 enhancement of nearly 20% and are disproportionately located in marginalized and minoritized communities. Near-warehouse truck traffic and NO2 significantly increase as warehouse density and the number of warehouse loading docks and parking spaces increase. Increased satellite-observed NO2 near warehouses underscores the need for indirect source rules, incentives for replacing old trucks, and corporate commitments towards electrification. Future ground-based monitoring campaigns may help track impacts of individual or small clusters of facilities. https://scitechdaily.com/toxic-toll-where-warehouses-rise-so-does-air-pollution/ https://scitechdaily.com/toxic-toll-where-warehouses-rise-so... > Toxic Toll: Where Warehouses Rise, So Does Air Pollution (recently assisted in scuttling an industrial park project in Northern IL [someone else's backyard, not mine], it can be done)
- alt227 2y ago
  I dont want my Amazon packages sooner, if it means creating more noise polution, air traffic, energy use, broken plastic waste etc.. > Halfway houses and low income housing doesn't need to exist any more than an Amazon warehouse does. This must be a joke, right? EDIT: I guess this is what the opinions of Amazon execs must be. We all question how people can be so blind that they make decisions which lead to huge amounts of suffering and mass destruction of the earths resources, well here it is in black and white.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Take that specific corporation's name off of it and yes it does. People need their things. Those things come from somewhere. How do those things get distributed? Some sort of packaging distribution warehouse center thing. It'll have trucks and vans and other industry, but other than the Amazon label on it, in what world does low income housing need to exist but warehouses can't?
    - alt227 2y ago
      > People need their things Sorry but I completely disagree, People lived for thousands of years before warehouses. People dont need 'stuff' - that is a fabrication by capitalism to make you buy more stuff. Housing, and specifically affordable housing for lower income people, is infinitely more required than more commercial warehouses built to ship people more Chinese rubbish.
      - bluGill 2y ago
        People lived poorly for thousands of years. The large majority didn't live to see 5 years old (those who did had the heartbreak of seeing their own children not living that long). Many women died in childbirth. Many people starved to death in a drought year. Specific to this article, many of those who survived lost their teeth because they didn't have toothpaste. Yes the world does need to do something about lower income people. However because of the above low income people today have a higher standard of living than the richest of 200 year ago. (though the rich then did have some luxuries that even the richest today consider only a dream).
- throwway120385 2y ago
  I'm surprised that you would compare drones loudly delivering cookies and toothpaste, which are arguably "convenient," with halfway houses and power plants. These people sound entirely reasonable in their opposition to the former, and I don't think you would find many of them opposing the latter in their neighborhood provided the new neighbor followed the norms of the community. That's really what this is about. Amazon installed a bunch of equipment that was so loud in operation that it scared wildlife away and ruined peoples' quiet enjoyment of their property. I could see the community having the same reaction if the halfway house decided to have loud parties in the evening or the power plant was constantly emitting exhaust noise into the neighborhood. But it also strikes me that they're entirely reasonable people who just want some peace and quiet.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    It's also completely reasonable that I don't want a halfway house, with the felons and drug addicts it'll bring even if they aren't throwing loud parties, in my neighborhood. I also don't want trains full of coal to rumble past my house at 1am on their way to the power plant.
    - ericmay 2y ago
      Yea in my neighborhood I also don't want drones buzzing around and clouding up my views or disturbing my nice day at the park just to deliver drop-shipped plastic crap from slave factories. I'd rather instead of Amazon continue to gain market share that* we have more local stores so we can rebuild our middle class. Yes in my backyard for more local businesses, sidewalks and walkable neighborhoods, fresh, local produce, and parks, and development, and clear skies without noise disturbances. If you want your packages delivered sooner why not set up your own small communities next to Amazon distribution centers and work out a deal with Amazon to pick up your own packages? Maybe they can even give you a Prime discount for self-pickup?? Technology is just a tool - it's neither progressive nor regressive except in the results of its application usage. I'm not sure where we got this idea that more efficient deliveries == "progress". Progress toward what? Even more efficient deliveries? * Nothing in particular against Amazon versus Wal-Mart or other generic retailers, Amazon is just the topic of the OP.
- palata 2y ago
  > Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? If I could get my packages today, instead of two days later What if you could, but it was 10x more expensive? Obviously you wouldn't want it. Now take a step back and realise that for many people, having drones flying over the city all day long is enough of a reason to not want it.
  - alt227 2y ago
    Ironically Amazon charges less to deliver it in one day rather than two, which is what leads to this kind of madness in the first place.
- pyrale 2y ago
  > Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? I don't order from Amazon, and whenever I get things delivered, I'm usually fine walking 5 minutes to the store where I have it delivered. And honestly, for the kind of items quoted in the article (toothpaste and batteries), I simply plan ahead to have stock.
  - piva00 2y ago
    > And honestly, for the kind of items quoted in the article (toothpaste and batteries), I simply plan ahead to have stock. Or as it happens in most urban areas of the developed world: I can just walk 5-10 min to buy it from a nearby store.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      How does the toothpaste get to that store for you to buy?
      - mikestew 2y ago
        Not by noisy drone, if that’s what you’re asking.
      - piva00 2y ago
        A truck delivers to them once every few days/weeks, the ones doing the last mile to my nearby store are quite often electric. Since it's a truck they can deliver a literal truckload of it instead of relying on some individual deliver point-to-point, economies of scale and all.
        Symbiote 2y ago
        And also the shop receives the toothpaste as a carton of 48 or 96 tubes or whatever it is, with little space wasted. With an individual delivery you get several times the volume of wasted space, plus at least one wasted layer of corrugated cardboard — which must then be taken away using a different truck. However, the shop does use better climate control and lighting than the warehouse.
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  Without drones I can still get Amazon packages delivered same day. And I don't see how drones would improve delivery speed regardless as they're at best last mile so you have all of the logistics to get to the drone location. It seems like a gimmick. At best to reduce labour costs of delivery drivers. >NIMBYs are anti-progress because of impacts to their lives and their neighborhood Improved lives and neighborhoods is the greatest progress possible. Like...isn't this the goal? Suddenly having endless droning of drones is not "progress" in any way at all. It's a regression. People move away from that sort of nuisance, not towards it.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  Pretty much everything I want from Amazon is delivered on the same day that I ordered it, free of extra charge, because I live in a real city where one van can serve thousands of customers in a single trip. Needing aircraft for same-day delivery is a problem that suburban development patterns caused for themselves.
  - llm_nerd 2y ago
    >Needing aircraft for same-day delivery is a problem that suburban development patterns caused for themselves. I live in the suburbs of an exurb. Many deliveries are same day. The rest are next day. "Suburbs" aren't what this is about, and I doubt it has much to do with speed either. Amazon is trying to automate more of the "last mile" to reduce delivery costs.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- coliveira 2y ago
  If you have such a desperate need for products, why don't you live right across from a super store? That would fix your issue.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    In this economy? I could be jobless and living out of my car in a Walmart parking lot if we wanted to get closer to the source. I'm not sure what what you see my issue as.
- bombcar 2y ago
  > Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? Me, at least enough that I cancelled Prime, and took advantage of that "Amazon day" thing they had whenever I could. I'd love for someone like Amazon or Walmart to offer weekly delivery to my neighborhood, and I could just order things as I remembered them, all delivered every Wednesday or whatever. Save time, save gas, save having to think about it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- finnthehuman 2y ago
  > Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? Scanning through my recent orders, 90+% of them could take a week to arrive and I wouldn't have noticed, much less minded.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ghaff 2y ago
In fairness, a lot of people here and elsewhere do use NIMBY broadly to mean anyone opposed to things they personally want to exist--at least in principle.
paulddraper 2y ago
> or at least acknowledges the need for, but just doesn't want in their back yard: power plants, halfway houses, low income housing, etc. Or an airport, yes?
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Just speaking for myself, I don't want a drone delivery center located in other people's neighborhoods either.
- Ensorceled 2y ago
  Yes. And? Are you implying an Amazon Warehouse suddenly using drones and filling the air with noise for their corporate enrichment is the same as a public airport built by elected officials after due consultation?
  - LanceH 2y ago
    > public airport built by elected officials after due consultation That's optimistic.
  - paulddraper 2y ago
    Most airports are private. Your other examples are power plants, halfway houses, low income housing are (often) private as well. There is of course a value judgement. But this is a matter of degree not kind.
rurp 2y ago
Agreed, I think that the term has become highly abused in a lot of political discussions. Many folks, even ones that I generally respect, will disdainfully dismiss any reasonable concerns to their preferred policy as selfish NIMBYISM.
joncrane 2y ago
I think many of these folks like the idea of drone delivery as long as it's not THEIR house next to the droneport

fragmede 2y ago

Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? If I could get my packages today, instead of two days later, and there's just this humming noise outside because of it? Some people would prefer the package sooner. NIMBYs are anti-progress because of impacts to their lives and their neighborhood. The power plant needs to exist, but arguably does it? What's wrong with the old one? Why do they need to build a new one? Halfway houses and low income housing doesn't need to exist any more than a warehouse does. This one happens to be owned by Amazon, but where you want the distribution center for goods to exist, and who do you want to have own it? That this Amazon warehouse makes more noise than other warehouses and they don't want it there is definition NIMBYism.

TheRealQueequeg 2y ago
gotta believe you're playing devil's advocate and not in genuine belief that an amazon warehouse > low income housing
- fragmede 2y ago
  I didn't say that amazon warehouses > low income housing, but I've edited my comment to make it more clear. Warehouses and distribution centers need to exist, even if they don't use drones.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    This is your opinion, not fact. Local communities can disallow them through zoning and planning, regardless of what consumers want. YIMBY for housing, NIMBY for whatever the Amazon paperclip maximizer wants.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Sure, it's an opinion that goods need to go to warehouses before being distributed to supermarkets. what industries are permitted in your utopia?
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Industries local citizens want in their area. If you don't have the votes, you don't get the industrial zoning, warehouses, data centers, etc. Go elsewhere.
        fragmede 2y ago
        Right. Some else's back yard.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Right, not in my backyard. If they want to defend theirs, that is their choice. If they don't, and they want the noise, the traffic, and the air pollutants, I encourage them to seek these projects for their backyard. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-50000-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-50000-0 > Regulators, environmental advocates, and community groups in the United States (U.S.) are concerned about air pollution associated with the proliferating e-commerce and warehousing industries. Nationwide datasets of warehouse locations, traffic, and satellite observations of the traffic-related pollutant nitrogen dioxide (NO2) provide a unique capability to evaluate the air quality and environmental equity impacts of these geographically-dispersed emission sources. Here, we show that the nearly 150,000 warehouses in the U.S. worsen local traffic-related air pollution with an average near-warehouse NO2 enhancement of nearly 20% and are disproportionately located in marginalized and minoritized communities. Near-warehouse truck traffic and NO2 significantly increase as warehouse density and the number of warehouse loading docks and parking spaces increase. Increased satellite-observed NO2 near warehouses underscores the need for indirect source rules, incentives for replacing old trucks, and corporate commitments towards electrification. Future ground-based monitoring campaigns may help track impacts of individual or small clusters of facilities. https://scitechdaily.com/toxic-toll-where-warehouses-rise-so-does-air-pollution/ https://scitechdaily.com/toxic-toll-where-warehouses-rise-so... > Toxic Toll: Where Warehouses Rise, So Does Air Pollution (recently assisted in scuttling an industrial park project in Northern IL [someone else's backyard, not mine], it can be done)
alt227 2y ago
I dont want my Amazon packages sooner, if it means creating more noise polution, air traffic, energy use, broken plastic waste etc.. > Halfway houses and low income housing doesn't need to exist any more than an Amazon warehouse does. This must be a joke, right? EDIT: I guess this is what the opinions of Amazon execs must be. We all question how people can be so blind that they make decisions which lead to huge amounts of suffering and mass destruction of the earths resources, well here it is in black and white.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Take that specific corporation's name off of it and yes it does. People need their things. Those things come from somewhere. How do those things get distributed? Some sort of packaging distribution warehouse center thing. It'll have trucks and vans and other industry, but other than the Amazon label on it, in what world does low income housing need to exist but warehouses can't?
  - alt227 2y ago
    > People need their things Sorry but I completely disagree, People lived for thousands of years before warehouses. People dont need 'stuff' - that is a fabrication by capitalism to make you buy more stuff. Housing, and specifically affordable housing for lower income people, is infinitely more required than more commercial warehouses built to ship people more Chinese rubbish.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      People lived poorly for thousands of years. The large majority didn't live to see 5 years old (those who did had the heartbreak of seeing their own children not living that long). Many women died in childbirth. Many people starved to death in a drought year. Specific to this article, many of those who survived lost their teeth because they didn't have toothpaste. Yes the world does need to do something about lower income people. However because of the above low income people today have a higher standard of living than the richest of 200 year ago. (though the rich then did have some luxuries that even the richest today consider only a dream).
throwway120385 2y ago
I'm surprised that you would compare drones loudly delivering cookies and toothpaste, which are arguably "convenient," with halfway houses and power plants. These people sound entirely reasonable in their opposition to the former, and I don't think you would find many of them opposing the latter in their neighborhood provided the new neighbor followed the norms of the community. That's really what this is about. Amazon installed a bunch of equipment that was so loud in operation that it scared wildlife away and ruined peoples' quiet enjoyment of their property. I could see the community having the same reaction if the halfway house decided to have loud parties in the evening or the power plant was constantly emitting exhaust noise into the neighborhood. But it also strikes me that they're entirely reasonable people who just want some peace and quiet.
- fragmede 2y ago
  It's also completely reasonable that I don't want a halfway house, with the felons and drug addicts it'll bring even if they aren't throwing loud parties, in my neighborhood. I also don't want trains full of coal to rumble past my house at 1am on their way to the power plant.
  - ericmay 2y ago
    Yea in my neighborhood I also don't want drones buzzing around and clouding up my views or disturbing my nice day at the park just to deliver drop-shipped plastic crap from slave factories. I'd rather instead of Amazon continue to gain market share that* we have more local stores so we can rebuild our middle class. Yes in my backyard for more local businesses, sidewalks and walkable neighborhoods, fresh, local produce, and parks, and development, and clear skies without noise disturbances. If you want your packages delivered sooner why not set up your own small communities next to Amazon distribution centers and work out a deal with Amazon to pick up your own packages? Maybe they can even give you a Prime discount for self-pickup?? Technology is just a tool - it's neither progressive nor regressive except in the results of its application usage. I'm not sure where we got this idea that more efficient deliveries == "progress". Progress toward what? Even more efficient deliveries? * Nothing in particular against Amazon versus Wal-Mart or other generic retailers, Amazon is just the topic of the OP.
palata 2y ago
> Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? If I could get my packages today, instead of two days later What if you could, but it was 10x more expensive? Obviously you wouldn't want it. Now take a step back and realise that for many people, having drones flying over the city all day long is enough of a reason to not want it.
- alt227 2y ago
  Ironically Amazon charges less to deliver it in one day rather than two, which is what leads to this kind of madness in the first place.
pyrale 2y ago
> Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? I don't order from Amazon, and whenever I get things delivered, I'm usually fine walking 5 minutes to the store where I have it delivered. And honestly, for the kind of items quoted in the article (toothpaste and batteries), I simply plan ahead to have stock.
- piva00 2y ago
  > And honestly, for the kind of items quoted in the article (toothpaste and batteries), I simply plan ahead to have stock. Or as it happens in most urban areas of the developed world: I can just walk 5-10 min to buy it from a nearby store.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    How does the toothpaste get to that store for you to buy?
    - mikestew 2y ago
      Not by noisy drone, if that’s what you’re asking.
    - piva00 2y ago
      A truck delivers to them once every few days/weeks, the ones doing the last mile to my nearby store are quite often electric. Since it's a truck they can deliver a literal truckload of it instead of relying on some individual deliver point-to-point, economies of scale and all.
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        And also the shop receives the toothpaste as a carton of 48 or 96 tubes or whatever it is, with little space wasted. With an individual delivery you get several times the volume of wasted space, plus at least one wasted layer of corrugated cardboard — which must then be taken away using a different truck. However, the shop does use better climate control and lighting than the warehouse.
llm_nerd 2y ago
Without drones I can still get Amazon packages delivered same day. And I don't see how drones would improve delivery speed regardless as they're at best last mile so you have all of the logistics to get to the drone location. It seems like a gimmick. At best to reduce labour costs of delivery drivers. >NIMBYs are anti-progress because of impacts to their lives and their neighborhood Improved lives and neighborhoods is the greatest progress possible. Like...isn't this the goal? Suddenly having endless droning of drones is not "progress" in any way at all. It's a regression. People move away from that sort of nuisance, not towards it.
jeffbee 2y ago
Pretty much everything I want from Amazon is delivered on the same day that I ordered it, free of extra charge, because I live in a real city where one van can serve thousands of customers in a single trip. Needing aircraft for same-day delivery is a problem that suburban development patterns caused for themselves.
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  >Needing aircraft for same-day delivery is a problem that suburban development patterns caused for themselves. I live in the suburbs of an exurb. Many deliveries are same day. The rest are next day. "Suburbs" aren't what this is about, and I doubt it has much to do with speed either. Amazon is trying to automate more of the "last mile" to reduce delivery costs.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
coliveira 2y ago
If you have such a desperate need for products, why don't you live right across from a super store? That would fix your issue.
- fragmede 2y ago
  In this economy? I could be jobless and living out of my car in a Walmart parking lot if we wanted to get closer to the source. I'm not sure what what you see my issue as.
bombcar 2y ago
> Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? Me, at least enough that I cancelled Prime, and took advantage of that "Amazon day" thing they had whenever I could. I'd love for someone like Amazon or Walmart to offer weekly delivery to my neighborhood, and I could just order things as I remembered them, all delivered every Wednesday or whatever. Save time, save gas, save having to think about it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
finnthehuman 2y ago
> Who doesn't want their Amazon packages delivered sooner? Scanning through my recent orders, 90+% of them could take a week to arrive and I wouldn't have noticed, much less minded.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ghaff 2y ago

In fairness, a lot of people here and elsewhere do use NIMBY broadly to mean anyone opposed to things they personally want to exist--at least in principle.

paulddraper 2y ago

> or at least acknowledges the need for, but just doesn't want in their back yard: power plants, halfway houses, low income housing, etc. Or an airport, yes?

mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Just speaking for myself, I don't want a drone delivery center located in other people's neighborhoods either.
Ensorceled 2y ago
Yes. And? Are you implying an Amazon Warehouse suddenly using drones and filling the air with noise for their corporate enrichment is the same as a public airport built by elected officials after due consultation?
- LanceH 2y ago
  > public airport built by elected officials after due consultation That's optimistic.
- paulddraper 2y ago
  Most airports are private. Your other examples are power plants, halfway houses, low income housing are (often) private as well. There is of course a value judgement. But this is a matter of degree not kind.

rurp 2y ago

Agreed, I think that the term has become highly abused in a lot of political discussions. Many folks, even ones that I generally respect, will disdainfully dismiss any reasonable concerns to their preferred policy as selfish NIMBYISM.

joncrane 2y ago

I think many of these folks like the idea of drone delivery as long as it's not THEIR house next to the droneport