4 ms·

The best way in to permacomputing, imo, continues to be: Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. Go

The best way in to permacomputing, imo, continues to be: Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. Go about your business driving this thing however you want to. Learn to live within its limits. This is truly the computer as bicycle for the mind.

CursedSilicon 2y ago
[flagged]
- jdmoreira 2y ago
  Can you please say more. Curious to learn more about this
  - Philpax 2y ago
    https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - alpaca128 2y ago
      Half those links are broken, the other half about the accusation that they’re nazis because they do torchlight marches, and inbetween a wiki article about a "Unite the Right rally" that contains zero mentions of suckless and seems a bit out of place. Is there anything more concrete?
      - jdmoreira 2y ago
        Yeah. My thoughts exactly. Sounds like a witch hunt. How about we start calling people nazis when they are actually literal nazis?
  - maeln 2y ago
    As far as I know: https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ But, as someone who also didn't know about the drama before last week or something, I never really liked suckless anyway. It always felt like the same pretensions minimalist movement you see in other field. Yeah it is very easy to make something with barely any feature work well and be tiny. Now try to do the same with something I actually want to use.
    - alpaca128 2y ago
      I kinda agree but it’s easier to apply a few extensions to something barebones than trying to make something bloated fast or make it behave less “smart”. I have a slightly patched build for dwm and st for a few necessary features and that works better for me than most alternatives and it just works. Also when it comes to input latency on Linux, st is still on top. The modern GPU accelerated terminals focus on throughput which I couldn’t care less about.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
nehal3m 2y ago
I agree. I flip between Apple's ecosystem and FOSS a few times a year. My wife recently dropped her cracked iPhone SE in the tub so it died. I gave her my 13 mini and decided to challenge myself to switch back to my Thinkpad and Fairphone for at least a year. Since I wouldn't really be needing sync features either I disabled iCloud and moved back offline. Much simpler, much more in my control. At the end of the day most computers built in the last 10 years don't break a sweat doing the things I need one for. Same for phones. It makes you much more resilient against hardware failure, and if you go through the pain of converting your stuff to open formats you're basically free as a bird.
EndShell 2y ago
Any older business class laptop really. I have an two older Laptops. One is a Dell 6410. The former has Debian on it with Gnome and I've stuck 8Gb of ram on the machine, slapped in an SSD. The machine is 14 years old and it can reasonably handle browsing, mail, Youtube, Discord and VSCode. Gnome actually performs better than XFCE or any of the light-weight DE as long as I am using Wayland.
- UncleSlacky 2y ago
  Yes, I use a (librebooted) Dell Latitude e6220 with 8Gb RAM and a 275Gb SSD when travelling, great apart from the low resolution screen.
  - EndShell 2y ago
    I did look at getting a 1080p screen for it. I am pretty sure I could fit one but the price was prohibitive.
- krige 2y ago
  Also have a Dell 6410, it's a scrappy little thing. The brushed metal brick aesthetic is pleasing. It's probably time to go full linux on it.
  - EndShell 2y ago
    OpenBSD and Linux work well on it. OpenBSD as much as I like it has too many usability issues on Desktop IME, you might find it absolutely fine. If you are using Linux make sure you are using Wayland. For decent Youtube performance turn off "Ambient Mode" in the Web UI, it wrecks the video playback performance. The box shadow effect with the video playing on top of it is too much for these old iGPUs to handle. Totem won't work properly in Gnome due to it not having a OpenGL 3.X compatible GPU. VLC will work fine. So just remove Totem and install VLC.
markus_zhang 2y ago
Nowadays I only purchase used mobile workstations. I can get a 32GB Dell under 700 CAD including tax and delivery. It was really a deal. New laptops are so expensive and unreliable that they might actually break down sonner than my used ones...
- aqueueaqueue 2y ago
  If I get a new non mac laptop I max out the warranties and accidental damage. Top service level. Then consider that real OG price. Without those extras you have a brick-in-waiting.
  - markus_zhang 2y ago
    It's gonna be more expensive though. Might as well go with a Mac...
    - aqueueaqueue 2y ago
      In my case 33% extra on top for 3 years coverage. Or approx a YT premium subscription. Got the entire thing replaced in that time due to issues plus lots of micro fixes. Pays off when you get a lemon! Having someone come to you is huge. Sending a laptop back for 6 weeks because of default warranty is a PITA and you need to source another laptop and then get it set up. As well as backup data, delete, restore etc. For an apples to Apples comparison you should add AppleCare, since the accidental damage cover is in the price I mentioned.
  - EndShell 2y ago
    Contrary to popular belief the Dell and Thinkpads are really reliable as long as you buy their business laptops. The consumer laptops are often not great, but the business ones are rock solid, easy to repair and built like bricks. You can also repair them yourself, so most people just wait until business update their inventory and you can get a cheap Dell/Thinkpad from ebay for a few hundred. I have a T480s, 24GB of Ram and a 8th Gen i7 processor that I picked up for £300. Granted the laptop is old now, but it runs all my dev software well.
ohgr 2y ago
If you like staying in a post-soviet hostel, that's perfect. I rather like something comfortable these days, so I'll stick with my M1 MacBook Pro. The creature comforts genuinely make my life better so I'm willing to pay for them.
- Tepix 2y ago
  I'm using an M1 Macbook myself, but from a Permacomputing standpoint it's rather terrible. Everything is soldered, nothing can be fixed, replaced or expanded.
  - ohgr 2y ago
    You can buy parts for it absolutely no problems at all so this is an exaggeration.
    - Tepix 2y ago
      Ok, so how do i increase the RAM, the SSD and upgrade the CPU?
      - ohgr 2y ago
        SSD is fine. I have a rework station. I haven't upgraded the other things in a computer for about 15 years.
usrbinbash 2y ago
> Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. And then people use this upcycled, environmentally friendly option to connect to social media, their music provider, 2-3 streaming services, their workplace account, and various AI systems, all of which require datacenters eating up so much energy, that by now we consider building nuclear power plants just for them.
- nehal3m 2y ago
  Great point. Aside from the energy requirements that also makes you dependent on infrastructure availability. You seem kind of cynical about the tendency to simplify but we have to start somewhere and taking care of your own setup first seems like a good first step. We ought to be mindful of the complexity we're making ourselves dependent on and solving for that in the use cases you mentioned. Most streaming platforms will let you save a local copy, for a start. You can also rip your physical media, or forego using a computer for media consumption altogether (or in permacomputing terms, self-obviate). But your point stands and from the perspective of permacomputing is indeed a problem.
Tepix 2y ago
Maybe we should challenge ourselves more! Here are the Plan 9 4th edition system requirements: https://plan9-4th-edition-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/user/getting-started.html https://plan9-4th-edition-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/... - 90 MHz or greater Intel/ARM 32-bit processor - 32 MiB of RAM (system memory for physical and viritualized installs) - SVGA capable of 800x600 screen resolution or greater - Network connection - 300 MiB of storage (SD, IDE, SATA, SAS) - Either a CD/DVD drive or a USB port for booting the installer media

CursedSilicon 2y ago

[flagged]

jdmoreira 2y ago
Can you please say more. Curious to learn more about this
- Philpax 2y ago
  https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - alpaca128 2y ago
    Half those links are broken, the other half about the accusation that they’re nazis because they do torchlight marches, and inbetween a wiki article about a "Unite the Right rally" that contains zero mentions of suckless and seems a bit out of place. Is there anything more concrete?
    - jdmoreira 2y ago
      Yeah. My thoughts exactly. Sounds like a witch hunt. How about we start calling people nazis when they are actually literal nazis?
- maeln 2y ago
  As far as I know: https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ But, as someone who also didn't know about the drama before last week or something, I never really liked suckless anyway. It always felt like the same pretensions minimalist movement you see in other field. Yeah it is very easy to make something with barely any feature work well and be tiny. Now try to do the same with something I actually want to use.
  - alpaca128 2y ago
    I kinda agree but it’s easier to apply a few extensions to something barebones than trying to make something bloated fast or make it behave less “smart”. I have a slightly patched build for dwm and st for a few necessary features and that works better for me than most alternatives and it just works. Also when it comes to input latency on Linux, st is still on top. The modern GPU accelerated terminals focus on throughput which I couldn’t care less about.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

nehal3m 2y ago

I agree. I flip between Apple's ecosystem and FOSS a few times a year. My wife recently dropped her cracked iPhone SE in the tub so it died. I gave her my 13 mini and decided to challenge myself to switch back to my Thinkpad and Fairphone for at least a year. Since I wouldn't really be needing sync features either I disabled iCloud and moved back offline. Much simpler, much more in my control. At the end of the day most computers built in the last 10 years don't break a sweat doing the things I need one for. Same for phones. It makes you much more resilient against hardware failure, and if you go through the pain of converting your stuff to open formats you're basically free as a bird.

EndShell 2y ago

Any older business class laptop really. I have an two older Laptops. One is a Dell 6410. The former has Debian on it with Gnome and I've stuck 8Gb of ram on the machine, slapped in an SSD. The machine is 14 years old and it can reasonably handle browsing, mail, Youtube, Discord and VSCode. Gnome actually performs better than XFCE or any of the light-weight DE as long as I am using Wayland.

UncleSlacky 2y ago
Yes, I use a (librebooted) Dell Latitude e6220 with 8Gb RAM and a 275Gb SSD when travelling, great apart from the low resolution screen.
- EndShell 2y ago
  I did look at getting a 1080p screen for it. I am pretty sure I could fit one but the price was prohibitive.
krige 2y ago
Also have a Dell 6410, it's a scrappy little thing. The brushed metal brick aesthetic is pleasing. It's probably time to go full linux on it.
- EndShell 2y ago
  OpenBSD and Linux work well on it. OpenBSD as much as I like it has too many usability issues on Desktop IME, you might find it absolutely fine. If you are using Linux make sure you are using Wayland. For decent Youtube performance turn off "Ambient Mode" in the Web UI, it wrecks the video playback performance. The box shadow effect with the video playing on top of it is too much for these old iGPUs to handle. Totem won't work properly in Gnome due to it not having a OpenGL 3.X compatible GPU. VLC will work fine. So just remove Totem and install VLC.

markus_zhang 2y ago

Nowadays I only purchase used mobile workstations. I can get a 32GB Dell under 700 CAD including tax and delivery. It was really a deal. New laptops are so expensive and unreliable that they might actually break down sonner than my used ones...

aqueueaqueue 2y ago
If I get a new non mac laptop I max out the warranties and accidental damage. Top service level. Then consider that real OG price. Without those extras you have a brick-in-waiting.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  It's gonna be more expensive though. Might as well go with a Mac...
  - aqueueaqueue 2y ago
    In my case 33% extra on top for 3 years coverage. Or approx a YT premium subscription. Got the entire thing replaced in that time due to issues plus lots of micro fixes. Pays off when you get a lemon! Having someone come to you is huge. Sending a laptop back for 6 weeks because of default warranty is a PITA and you need to source another laptop and then get it set up. As well as backup data, delete, restore etc. For an apples to Apples comparison you should add AppleCare, since the accidental damage cover is in the price I mentioned.
- EndShell 2y ago
  Contrary to popular belief the Dell and Thinkpads are really reliable as long as you buy their business laptops. The consumer laptops are often not great, but the business ones are rock solid, easy to repair and built like bricks. You can also repair them yourself, so most people just wait until business update their inventory and you can get a cheap Dell/Thinkpad from ebay for a few hundred. I have a T480s, 24GB of Ram and a 8th Gen i7 processor that I picked up for £300. Granted the laptop is old now, but it runs all my dev software well.

ohgr 2y ago

If you like staying in a post-soviet hostel, that's perfect. I rather like something comfortable these days, so I'll stick with my M1 MacBook Pro. The creature comforts genuinely make my life better so I'm willing to pay for them.

Tepix 2y ago
I'm using an M1 Macbook myself, but from a Permacomputing standpoint it's rather terrible. Everything is soldered, nothing can be fixed, replaced or expanded.
- ohgr 2y ago
  You can buy parts for it absolutely no problems at all so this is an exaggeration.
  - Tepix 2y ago
    Ok, so how do i increase the RAM, the SSD and upgrade the CPU?
    - ohgr 2y ago
      SSD is fine. I have a rework station. I haven't upgraded the other things in a computer for about 15 years.

usrbinbash 2y ago

> Get an old used Thinkpad. Put Linux or one of the BSDs on it. Use low-resource options: LDXE, i3wm. And then people use this upcycled, environmentally friendly option to connect to social media, their music provider, 2-3 streaming services, their workplace account, and various AI systems, all of which require datacenters eating up so much energy, that by now we consider building nuclear power plants just for them.

nehal3m 2y ago
Great point. Aside from the energy requirements that also makes you dependent on infrastructure availability. You seem kind of cynical about the tendency to simplify but we have to start somewhere and taking care of your own setup first seems like a good first step. We ought to be mindful of the complexity we're making ourselves dependent on and solving for that in the use cases you mentioned. Most streaming platforms will let you save a local copy, for a start. You can also rip your physical media, or forego using a computer for media consumption altogether (or in permacomputing terms, self-obviate). But your point stands and from the perspective of permacomputing is indeed a problem.

Tepix 2y ago

Maybe we should challenge ourselves more! Here are the Plan 9 4th edition system requirements: https://plan9-4th-edition-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/user/getting-started.html https://plan9-4th-edition-tutorial.readthedocs.io/en/latest/... - 90 MHz or greater Intel/ARM 32-bit processor - 32 MiB of RAM (system memory for physical and viritualized installs) - SVGA capable of 800x600 screen resolution or greater - Network connection - 300 MiB of storage (SD, IDE, SATA, SAS) - Either a CD/DVD drive or a USB port for booting the installer media