3 ms·

I think the return on investment is underplayed, it's not just what skills you graduate with, it's whether you find going to school at all rewarding. I was bore

I think the return on investment is underplayed, it's not just what skills you graduate with, it's whether you find going to school at all rewarding. I was bored stiff in most of my classes, but having marching band to look forward to and the reward of traveling to different cities on the band bus kept me from completely checking out of school. Maybe another aspect missing from schools lacking shop is the sense that you're trustworthy enough to put in front of a potentially lethal machine, a little bit of self worth goes a long way.

rckclmbr 2y ago
We had a metal lathe in our high school shop class. I still can’t believe someone didn’t kill themselves on that. I think wood lathes are fine, but honestly that should be kept out.
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Wood lathes are much more dangerous than metal lathes IMO! They run at high speeds, the workpiece is typically less secure, the material has a grain structure prone to catching the tool and digging into it, ventilation is required, and most importantly, the cutting tool is gripped in the operator's hands instead of being secured on a toolpost.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  A metal lathe is the fundamental machine tool. You learn how to calculate feeds and speeds, plan depth of cut, thread cutting, parting, etc. You learn about surface finish, chatter, cutter shape... Why rob students of this? Should nobody learn basic machinist skills? It's no more or less dangerous than any other shop tool.
- artursapek 2y ago
  wood lathes + long hair = very risky business
  - WillAdams 2y ago
    Yep. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-dies-in-machine-shop-accident.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-die...
    - artursapek 2y ago
      yeah the wood shop instructor told us about this story when I was at RISD :-( really sad
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    My dad (AF pilot) eschewed long hair. He said it was a convenient handle for your enemy to pull your head back and slit your throat.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  These things aren't actually as dangerous as Reddit and the white collar internet make them out to be. The "being dumb" to near miss conversion ratio isn't that high and the near miss to someone gets hurt conversion ratio is abysmal.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  In metal shop, one kid left the key in the chuck and turned the lathe on. It punched a hole in the wall opposite it. It would have killed anyone in its path. I'm not real comfortable around lathes.
- varjag 2y ago
  Wood lathes, and generally woodworking tools like saws and routers are substantially more dangerous. Especially at the scale of machinery you have in vocational classes.
lolinder 2y ago
> Maybe another aspect missing from schools lacking shop is the sense that you're trustworthy enough to put in front of a potentially lethal machine, a little bit of self worth goes a long way. I have the distinct memory of this thought crossing my mind during orientation in shop classes. The instructor gave us the rundown of how to be safe and then he actually let us use cool machines without hovering around us every second of the period! The trust involved in that exercise was immense, and even kids who were the class clowns in other classes rose to the occasion and were responsible in shop class. I can only imagine how important this kind of experience would be for today's kids of the helicopter generation, many of whom would be receiving this type of trust to handle danger like an adult for perhaps the first time in their lives.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  We had to watch a movie on day one (or very early in the class) with pretty graphic scenes of shop injuries. Blood, fingers getting cut off, a guy speared in the stomach by a scrap of wood binding and then thrown from the table saw blade.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    I also got the scare treatment. 25 years later and I still refuse to buy a table saw despite being characterized as risk-tolerant is many other dimensions.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      I use a table saw, but am extremely slow and careful with it. It's a terrifying tool. The router also terrifies me, because in shop class I hadn't tightened the chuck enough, and the bit came out and ate through the work and fell on the floor, then zinged off at high speed. It missed me completely. The other thing I do not like are the oxy and acetelyne cylinders. The metal shop teacher showed how to blow the dust off by cracking the valves. OMG, 2000 psi. Nope nope nope nope.
      - 2y ago
gonzo41 2y ago
I generally agree, young people respond well to responsibility. And whilst it doesn't help me day to day, knowing how the make dovetail joints is one of the things I cherish most from year 10.
paulryanrogers 2y ago
As someone who was shoved and occasionally bullied while operating machines like belt saws... I'm not sure it was worth it. Perhaps with stop-saw like inventions it could be safer, if the patents ever expire so schools could actually afford them.
- hyperold 2y ago
  All it takes is installing cameras and if anyone is caught up doing stupid shit the shoptime is over for them, permanently if it's anything serious. I remember one clown kid in my class back in the days put a hottish drillbit to another's kid neck acting like a cool spy or something like that (we were 14 years old, luckily got only a mild burn which healed quickly). The teacher punched him in the face, probably not with full force but it was not a soft slap either, and banned him from the shop for some time. No incidents after that.
  - fn-mote 2y ago
    > The teacher punched him in the face […] and banned him from the shop Incredible story for another generation. Thank you for sharing!
- alexjplant 2y ago
  > As someone who was shoved and occasionally bullied while operating machines like belt saws... I'm not sure it was worth it. This. It's all fun and games until one of your classmates shoots you in the face with an air compressor while you're using a bandsaw. I still have all my fingers but did end up in trouble because everybody only saw the immediate aftermath of me making it abundantly clear how much I didn't appreciate his antics (only verbally, of course).
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Are shop classes mandated by states anywhere? No schools I know offer it. I am not sure if it’s a good or bad thing. I’ve heard of children having accidents in those classes - sometimes not just an accident but the result of other children intentionally harming them. On the other hand, I feel like our society has lost the ability to DIY and do things that are … less online. Maybe shop classes can help with that.
WillAdams 2y ago
This is why Sloyd woodworking is taught in northern European countries: >Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others. https://rainfordrestorations.com/category/woodworking-techniques/sloyd/ https://rainfordrestorations.com/category/woodworking-techni...
makeitdouble 2y ago
A slightly different angle could be whether it needs to be school and can't be handled by the town in a different setting for instance. I grew up in a town that had a community center where kids of my age played in bands, learned crocheting etc. School was boring, but it was short, and it was easy to meet with other kids from other schools, including other towns. Kids doing classical music have the same experience in general I think.
- johnkizer 2y ago
  Maybe - but if it's not handled by the school, then there's going to be some sort of access problem for some kids. Transportation, time to do it, financial for the parents, etc.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    Yes, depending on the city it can be more or less complex. It comes down to how kids are viewed, and a good indicator could be how libraries are handled. How much does the local library cost ? is it easy for kids to access ? is there a library in the first place ? If the local library is thriving, a community center can be an extension of that. If it's dead, that city is in a pretty bad place from the start.
  - floatrock 2y ago
    What's the right balance on perfect-is-the-enemy-of-the-good here? On the one hand, centralization makes a potentially low-interest or high-expense experience more viable. On the other hand, equity. When is it appropriate to trade some equity for an experience that would otherwise be unfeasible in a every-school-does-it-themselves cause everyone's budget cutting?
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      I really don't think this is the actual problem here. A town with multiple high schools is too big for a single central youth woodworking shop. A town with multiple underfunded schools is not going to have the resources to provide this anyway, or if they do it's because of specific values & policies that are incompatible with providing universal services to citizens. But once you have decided to do this, and come up with some funding for it somehow: should you use the currently existing infrastructure in place to move children around, and the adults in place with experience working with them, and the bureaucratic apparatus in place to manage them etc etc or should you just build a completely new thing that will totally be better. Every non-programmer sees the obvious answer immediately. There's no tradeoff here really, these classes belong in middle and high school. The only reasonable alternative is libraries but they have the same funding issues. The problem is the choice we have made to underfund these institutions. If you're working within these constraints without being able to change the funding, public schools have the most of the apparatus in place already, compared to the alternatives.

rckclmbr 2y ago

We had a metal lathe in our high school shop class. I still can’t believe someone didn’t kill themselves on that. I think wood lathes are fine, but honestly that should be kept out.

mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Wood lathes are much more dangerous than metal lathes IMO! They run at high speeds, the workpiece is typically less secure, the material has a grain structure prone to catching the tool and digging into it, ventilation is required, and most importantly, the cutting tool is gripped in the operator's hands instead of being secured on a toolpost.
jcgrillo 2y ago
A metal lathe is the fundamental machine tool. You learn how to calculate feeds and speeds, plan depth of cut, thread cutting, parting, etc. You learn about surface finish, chatter, cutter shape... Why rob students of this? Should nobody learn basic machinist skills? It's no more or less dangerous than any other shop tool.
artursapek 2y ago
wood lathes + long hair = very risky business
- WillAdams 2y ago
  Yep. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-dies-in-machine-shop-accident.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-die...
  - artursapek 2y ago
    yeah the wood shop instructor told us about this story when I was at RISD :-( really sad
- WalterBright 2y ago
  My dad (AF pilot) eschewed long hair. He said it was a convenient handle for your enemy to pull your head back and slit your throat.
potato3732842 2y ago
These things aren't actually as dangerous as Reddit and the white collar internet make them out to be. The "being dumb" to near miss conversion ratio isn't that high and the near miss to someone gets hurt conversion ratio is abysmal.
WalterBright 2y ago
In metal shop, one kid left the key in the chuck and turned the lathe on. It punched a hole in the wall opposite it. It would have killed anyone in its path. I'm not real comfortable around lathes.
varjag 2y ago
Wood lathes, and generally woodworking tools like saws and routers are substantially more dangerous. Especially at the scale of machinery you have in vocational classes.

lolinder 2y ago

> Maybe another aspect missing from schools lacking shop is the sense that you're trustworthy enough to put in front of a potentially lethal machine, a little bit of self worth goes a long way. I have the distinct memory of this thought crossing my mind during orientation in shop classes. The instructor gave us the rundown of how to be safe and then he actually let us use cool machines without hovering around us every second of the period! The trust involved in that exercise was immense, and even kids who were the class clowns in other classes rose to the occasion and were responsible in shop class. I can only imagine how important this kind of experience would be for today's kids of the helicopter generation, many of whom would be receiving this type of trust to handle danger like an adult for perhaps the first time in their lives.

SoftTalker 2y ago
We had to watch a movie on day one (or very early in the class) with pretty graphic scenes of shop injuries. Blood, fingers getting cut off, a guy speared in the stomach by a scrap of wood binding and then thrown from the table saw blade.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  I also got the scare treatment. 25 years later and I still refuse to buy a table saw despite being characterized as risk-tolerant is many other dimensions.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    I use a table saw, but am extremely slow and careful with it. It's a terrifying tool. The router also terrifies me, because in shop class I hadn't tightened the chuck enough, and the bit came out and ate through the work and fell on the floor, then zinged off at high speed. It missed me completely. The other thing I do not like are the oxy and acetelyne cylinders. The metal shop teacher showed how to blow the dust off by cracking the valves. OMG, 2000 psi. Nope nope nope nope.
    - 2y ago

gonzo41 2y ago

I generally agree, young people respond well to responsibility. And whilst it doesn't help me day to day, knowing how the make dovetail joints is one of the things I cherish most from year 10.

paulryanrogers 2y ago

As someone who was shoved and occasionally bullied while operating machines like belt saws... I'm not sure it was worth it. Perhaps with stop-saw like inventions it could be safer, if the patents ever expire so schools could actually afford them.

hyperold 2y ago
All it takes is installing cameras and if anyone is caught up doing stupid shit the shoptime is over for them, permanently if it's anything serious. I remember one clown kid in my class back in the days put a hottish drillbit to another's kid neck acting like a cool spy or something like that (we were 14 years old, luckily got only a mild burn which healed quickly). The teacher punched him in the face, probably not with full force but it was not a soft slap either, and banned him from the shop for some time. No incidents after that.
- fn-mote 2y ago
  > The teacher punched him in the face […] and banned him from the shop Incredible story for another generation. Thank you for sharing!
alexjplant 2y ago
> As someone who was shoved and occasionally bullied while operating machines like belt saws... I'm not sure it was worth it. This. It's all fun and games until one of your classmates shoots you in the face with an air compressor while you're using a bandsaw. I still have all my fingers but did end up in trouble because everybody only saw the immediate aftermath of me making it abundantly clear how much I didn't appreciate his antics (only verbally, of course).

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

Are shop classes mandated by states anywhere? No schools I know offer it. I am not sure if it’s a good or bad thing. I’ve heard of children having accidents in those classes - sometimes not just an accident but the result of other children intentionally harming them. On the other hand, I feel like our society has lost the ability to DIY and do things that are … less online. Maybe shop classes can help with that.

WillAdams 2y ago

This is why Sloyd woodworking is taught in northern European countries: >Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others. https://rainfordrestorations.com/category/woodworking-techniques/sloyd/ https://rainfordrestorations.com/category/woodworking-techni...

makeitdouble 2y ago

A slightly different angle could be whether it needs to be school and can't be handled by the town in a different setting for instance. I grew up in a town that had a community center where kids of my age played in bands, learned crocheting etc. School was boring, but it was short, and it was easy to meet with other kids from other schools, including other towns. Kids doing classical music have the same experience in general I think.

johnkizer 2y ago
Maybe - but if it's not handled by the school, then there's going to be some sort of access problem for some kids. Transportation, time to do it, financial for the parents, etc.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  Yes, depending on the city it can be more or less complex. It comes down to how kids are viewed, and a good indicator could be how libraries are handled. How much does the local library cost ? is it easy for kids to access ? is there a library in the first place ? If the local library is thriving, a community center can be an extension of that. If it's dead, that city is in a pretty bad place from the start.
- floatrock 2y ago
  What's the right balance on perfect-is-the-enemy-of-the-good here? On the one hand, centralization makes a potentially low-interest or high-expense experience more viable. On the other hand, equity. When is it appropriate to trade some equity for an experience that would otherwise be unfeasible in a every-school-does-it-themselves cause everyone's budget cutting?
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    I really don't think this is the actual problem here. A town with multiple high schools is too big for a single central youth woodworking shop. A town with multiple underfunded schools is not going to have the resources to provide this anyway, or if they do it's because of specific values & policies that are incompatible with providing universal services to citizens. But once you have decided to do this, and come up with some funding for it somehow: should you use the currently existing infrastructure in place to move children around, and the adults in place with experience working with them, and the bureaucratic apparatus in place to manage them etc etc or should you just build a completely new thing that will totally be better. Every non-programmer sees the obvious answer immediately. There's no tradeoff here really, these classes belong in middle and high school. The only reasonable alternative is libraries but they have the same funding issues. The problem is the choice we have made to underfund these institutions. If you're working within these constraints without being able to change the funding, public schools have the most of the apparatus in place already, compared to the alternatives.