4 ms·

A lot of the research seems really useful. I don't understand why we wouldn't prioritize understanding how to prevent drug cartel recruitment (one of the exampl

A lot of the research seems really useful. I don't understand why we wouldn't prioritize understanding how to prevent drug cartel recruitment (one of the examples cited in the article).

philwelch 2y ago
The research is useful in the sense that actually understanding the issues being investigated would be valuable. The question is, would the funded research actually deliver a better understanding of those issues? Given the state of the social sciences, I don't think that it would.
- some_random 2y ago
  Yeah this is an under discussed aspect of the grant issues, it's important to decide whether or not to fund something, but just as if not more important is to make sure that the funding is used in a way that actually delivers the promised effect.
  - philwelch 2y ago
    I also don't think the Pentagon has the expertise necessary to tell good social science from bad.
    - relaxing 2y ago
      The DoD employs experts from many different fields. Wars aren’t just won on the battlefront. PSYOPS is an obvious example of applied social science, but it extends far beyond that.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  > Given the state of the social sciences, I don't think that it would. Why not? That's a really broad brush.
  - philwelch 2y ago
    Google “replication crisis” just for starters.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Some fields are inherently harder to replicate though -- economics, psychology, etc. The fact that we (somewhat) do it with biology is amazing. That doesn't mean we should avoid spending money in hard to replicate fields, or that we should require impossible to satisfy bars for funding. Some of the most interesting results in these fields come with further questions attached.
      - philwelch 2y ago
        The question isn’t whether the social sciences should exist as an academic field, the question is if they deliver reliable enough results to be a cost effective use of the defense budget.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Indeed, but replication crisis isn't that argument, given that's a field-as-whole issue rather than the cost effectiveness of a specific study.
        philwelch 2y ago
        I'm still talking about the field as a whole; I'm just saying "should the field exist" is a different question than "does the field generate good enough results for the Defense Department to rely on". See also my other comment, "I also don't think the Pentagon has the expertise necessary to tell good social science from bad."
        ethbr1 2y ago
        If anything, I'd expect the Pentagon might have better expertise, given how distinct its intellectual zeitgeist is from social science academia.
walterbell 2y ago
Feb 27, https://apnews.com/article/mexico-drug-lord-rafael-caro-quintero-extradition-ad769ef1f2addd8530f4b8b96d00bb4c https://apnews.com/article/mexico-drug-lord-rafael-caro-quin... > Mexico has sent 29 drug cartel figures, including drug lord Rafael Caro Quintero, who was behind the killing of a U.S. DEA agent in 1985, to the United States as the Trump administration turns up the pressure on drug trafficking organizations.. “This is historical, this has really never happened in the history of Mexico,” said Mike Vigil, former DEA chief of international operations.. The unprecedented show of security cooperation comes as top Mexican officials are in Washington trying to head off the Trump administration’s threat of imposing 25% tariffs on all Mexican imports starting Tuesday.
- ironman1478 2y ago
  The original article references cartels in Colombia, not Mexico. Also, the goal of the research is to prevent people from joining crime organizations, not how to catch existing heads of criminal organizations. It's not clear what you implied by the text that you quoted.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    cartels in Colombia, not Mexico https://dialogo-americas.com/articles/mexican-cartels-expand-their-presence-in-colombia/ https://dialogo-americas.com/articles/mexican-cartels-expand... > the Ombudsman’s Office, an agency of Colombia’s Public Ministry, highlights the presence and the areas of operations of three of the strongest Mexican drug cartels: the Jalisco New Generation Cartel, Los Zetas, and the Sinaloa Cartel.. there is a belief among foreign consumers that Colombian drugs are of high quality, so the narcos capitalize on that. the goal of the research is to prevent people from joining crime organizations, not how to catch existing heads of criminal organizations If budgets are constrained, which is a higher priority?
    - defrost 2y ago
      Starving the body of the snake ? History suggests cutting off the head of a drug cartel is just a Tier 2 career advancement opportunity. Did the aquisition of Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán as a token trophy head put much of a dent in the ongoing activity of the Sinaloa Cartel Ship of Theseus? There's much to be said for understanding an organism (an entire cartel dynamic in this case) in order to eliminate it.
dragonwriter 2y ago
Well, if “we” were deliberately weakening the US, either to destabilize the government in order to being about a radically different system of government, or on behalf of a hostile foreign power (or, perhaps most relevantly, as part of a hybrid movement whose members have a mix of those motivations), then “we” might want to cut a large number of things that would seem nonsensical to cut for people who don’t share that goal.

A lot of the research seems really useful. I don't understand why we wouldn't prioritize understanding how to prevent drug cartel recruitment (one of the examples cited in the article).

philwelch 2y ago

The research is useful in the sense that actually understanding the issues being investigated would be valuable. The question is, would the funded research actually deliver a better understanding of those issues? Given the state of the social sciences, I don't think that it would.

some_random 2y ago
Yeah this is an under discussed aspect of the grant issues, it's important to decide whether or not to fund something, but just as if not more important is to make sure that the funding is used in a way that actually delivers the promised effect.
- philwelch 2y ago
  I also don't think the Pentagon has the expertise necessary to tell good social science from bad.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    The DoD employs experts from many different fields. Wars aren’t just won on the battlefront. PSYOPS is an obvious example of applied social science, but it extends far beyond that.
ethbr1 2y ago
> Given the state of the social sciences, I don't think that it would. Why not? That's a really broad brush.
- philwelch 2y ago
  Google “replication crisis” just for starters.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Some fields are inherently harder to replicate though -- economics, psychology, etc. The fact that we (somewhat) do it with biology is amazing. That doesn't mean we should avoid spending money in hard to replicate fields, or that we should require impossible to satisfy bars for funding. Some of the most interesting results in these fields come with further questions attached.
    - philwelch 2y ago
      The question isn’t whether the social sciences should exist as an academic field, the question is if they deliver reliable enough results to be a cost effective use of the defense budget.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        Indeed, but replication crisis isn't that argument, given that's a field-as-whole issue rather than the cost effectiveness of a specific study.
        philwelch 2y ago
        I'm still talking about the field as a whole; I'm just saying "should the field exist" is a different question than "does the field generate good enough results for the Defense Department to rely on". See also my other comment, "I also don't think the Pentagon has the expertise necessary to tell good social science from bad."
        ethbr1 2y ago
        If anything, I'd expect the Pentagon might have better expertise, given how distinct its intellectual zeitgeist is from social science academia.

walterbell 2y ago

Feb 27, https://apnews.com/article/mexico-drug-lord-rafael-caro-quintero-extradition-ad769ef1f2addd8530f4b8b96d00bb4c https://apnews.com/article/mexico-drug-lord-rafael-caro-quin... > Mexico has sent 29 drug cartel figures, including drug lord Rafael Caro Quintero, who was behind the killing of a U.S. DEA agent in 1985, to the United States as the Trump administration turns up the pressure on drug trafficking organizations.. “This is historical, this has really never happened in the history of Mexico,” said Mike Vigil, former DEA chief of international operations.. The unprecedented show of security cooperation comes as top Mexican officials are in Washington trying to head off the Trump administration’s threat of imposing 25% tariffs on all Mexican imports starting Tuesday.

ironman1478 2y ago
The original article references cartels in Colombia, not Mexico. Also, the goal of the research is to prevent people from joining crime organizations, not how to catch existing heads of criminal organizations. It's not clear what you implied by the text that you quoted.
- walterbell 2y ago
  cartels in Colombia, not Mexico https://dialogo-americas.com/articles/mexican-cartels-expand-their-presence-in-colombia/ https://dialogo-americas.com/articles/mexican-cartels-expand... > the Ombudsman’s Office, an agency of Colombia’s Public Ministry, highlights the presence and the areas of operations of three of the strongest Mexican drug cartels: the Jalisco New Generation Cartel, Los Zetas, and the Sinaloa Cartel.. there is a belief among foreign consumers that Colombian drugs are of high quality, so the narcos capitalize on that. the goal of the research is to prevent people from joining crime organizations, not how to catch existing heads of criminal organizations If budgets are constrained, which is a higher priority?
  - defrost 2y ago
    Starving the body of the snake ? History suggests cutting off the head of a drug cartel is just a Tier 2 career advancement opportunity. Did the aquisition of Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán as a token trophy head put much of a dent in the ongoing activity of the Sinaloa Cartel Ship of Theseus? There's much to be said for understanding an organism (an entire cartel dynamic in this case) in order to eliminate it.

dragonwriter 2y ago

Well, if “we” were deliberately weakening the US, either to destabilize the government in order to being about a radically different system of government, or on behalf of a hostile foreign power (or, perhaps most relevantly, as part of a hybrid movement whose members have a mix of those motivations), then “we” might want to cut a large number of things that would seem nonsensical to cut for people who don’t share that goal.