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I also grappled with this issue until I lived in a community that was highly, highly gendered. Children naturally try to mimic the social behaviors around them.

I also grappled with this issue until I lived in a community that was highly, highly gendered. Children naturally try to mimic the social behaviors around them. If these social behaviors are gendered, they will attempt to gender themselves and view these behaviors through the lens of social expectations of gender. Especially if they are proactively gendered by the adults in their community (i.e. socialized as male or female with explicit expectations), as most communities do. I don't really have any beef with gender roles, but sometimes the roles communicate simply antisocial behavior. One very easy example of this is the high rate of deadbeat dads in comparison to rates of single dads. And yea, maybe some people just shouldn't be around children, but once you observe how this passes down generations with your own eyes it's very difficult to un-see. In these situations simply having a healthy adult that does align with gender expectations on some level, but not another level, that's an alternative can equip children to make decisions about their own life and how they want gender to figure into their own self-image and relationship to the community. What I don't get is that Andrew Tate and Elon Musk are also, erm, not very masculine by the standards of many if not most communities here in america except in the sense of "thinking being an asshole is funny". Neither is Trump, for that matter. Something tells me that there are other factors at play here than just "masculine role models".

david-gpu 2y ago
But the root of that problem is indoctrinating children that they are expected to follow certain paths because of their gender or skin color. Not the absence of role models that match those traits. My sister and I were educated in a gender-agnostic fashion and neither of us fell into the trap of thinking that we must do this or that because of our gender. As a result, we each carved our own different path. I don't see why my children will be any different, unless their own peers indoctrinate them with arbitrary gender roles.
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  Gender roles aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Calling it "indoctrination" is unlikely to convince many to see the benefits of abandoning gender entirely (or gender roles, not sure which one you're advocating for). You can either get along with people or not, you can either communicate with people or not, it's really up to you. But this doesn't change the fact that kids will be raised in this environment, and it's our collective responsibility to care for them regardless of how you judge the parenting. That, or we collectively bear the consequences of shirking this duty. Anyway, what is the idea of a role model if not a positive case of indoctrination? What are we even discussing here?
Dracophoenix 2y ago
> One very easy example of this is the high rate of deadbeat dads in comparison to rates of single dads. Unlike women, men don't have a say in the birthing process but are nonetheless saddled with the consequences. Unlike women, they have no recognized right to unilaterally relinquish parenthood and the costs associated with it. Being a "deadbeat dad" is the result of a lack of agency against the legal fiction of paternal obligation. It's not like these men would prefer to be deadbeats if availed the free choice of parenthood rather than the legal imposition of it. If there was a database of every abortion undertaken and every child given away by a woman, akin to the Federal Case Registry for child support, it would be evident that women are just as likely to be deadbeats as men. > In these situations simply having a healthy adult that does align with gender expectations on some level, but not another level, that's an alternative can equip children to make decisions about their own life and how they want gender to figure into their own self-image and relationship to the community. In a world of 8 billion people and countless permutations of social cohesion, it takes a severe case of naïveté or hubris to believe that "healthy" is or could ever be a well-defined term and not a moving target only a small proportion of people have the wherewithal to live up to. Gender expectations are all simplifications and fictions that often put people into neat little boxes without accounting for their individual circumstances. This has done more to harm self-image than build it, especially when people fall short of these expectations and later resent themselves or the world for their perceived inadequacy to fulfill standards they never consented to.
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  > Unlike women, men don't have a say in the birthing process but are nonetheless saddled with the consequences. Men don't have any say in whether or not they have unprotected sex? No. You've lost me. Not a single absentee father I've ever met has accused their baby mommas of sexual assault. That would obviously be a wildly different situation than the general trend I'm describing. It's also hugely offensive. If you don't want kids, you have a responsibility to not have unprotected sex. Take some damn accountability for your actions and accept the consequences.
  - Dracophoenix 2y ago

david-gpu 2y ago

But the root of that problem is indoctrinating children that they are expected to follow certain paths because of their gender or skin color. Not the absence of role models that match those traits. My sister and I were educated in a gender-agnostic fashion and neither of us fell into the trap of thinking that we must do this or that because of our gender. As a result, we each carved our own different path. I don't see why my children will be any different, unless their own peers indoctrinate them with arbitrary gender roles.

ForTheKidz 2y ago
Gender roles aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Calling it "indoctrination" is unlikely to convince many to see the benefits of abandoning gender entirely (or gender roles, not sure which one you're advocating for). You can either get along with people or not, you can either communicate with people or not, it's really up to you. But this doesn't change the fact that kids will be raised in this environment, and it's our collective responsibility to care for them regardless of how you judge the parenting. That, or we collectively bear the consequences of shirking this duty. Anyway, what is the idea of a role model if not a positive case of indoctrination? What are we even discussing here?

Dracophoenix 2y ago

> One very easy example of this is the high rate of deadbeat dads in comparison to rates of single dads. Unlike women, men don't have a say in the birthing process but are nonetheless saddled with the consequences. Unlike women, they have no recognized right to unilaterally relinquish parenthood and the costs associated with it. Being a "deadbeat dad" is the result of a lack of agency against the legal fiction of paternal obligation. It's not like these men would prefer to be deadbeats if availed the free choice of parenthood rather than the legal imposition of it. If there was a database of every abortion undertaken and every child given away by a woman, akin to the Federal Case Registry for child support, it would be evident that women are just as likely to be deadbeats as men. > In these situations simply having a healthy adult that does align with gender expectations on some level, but not another level, that's an alternative can equip children to make decisions about their own life and how they want gender to figure into their own self-image and relationship to the community. In a world of 8 billion people and countless permutations of social cohesion, it takes a severe case of naïveté or hubris to believe that "healthy" is or could ever be a well-defined term and not a moving target only a small proportion of people have the wherewithal to live up to. Gender expectations are all simplifications and fictions that often put people into neat little boxes without accounting for their individual circumstances. This has done more to harm self-image than build it, especially when people fall short of these expectations and later resent themselves or the world for their perceived inadequacy to fulfill standards they never consented to.

ForTheKidz 2y ago
> Unlike women, men don't have a say in the birthing process but are nonetheless saddled with the consequences. Men don't have any say in whether or not they have unprotected sex? No. You've lost me. Not a single absentee father I've ever met has accused their baby mommas of sexual assault. That would obviously be a wildly different situation than the general trend I'm describing. It's also hugely offensive. If you don't want kids, you have a responsibility to not have unprotected sex. Take some damn accountability for your actions and accept the consequences.
- Dracophoenix 2y ago