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> If the users pay you’re accountable to them. Except, apparently, the paying users that don't use Apple hardware.

Etheryte 2y ago
Development costs money. This is outlined in their FAQ [0]: > Are there plans for a Windows/Linux/Android version of Orion? > We currently do not have the resources to hire a new team to do any of these platforms yet. Since Orion is funded by its users only, it is entirely up to the number of subscribers and Orion+ sales we have that will enable funding a new team to make Orion for any new platform. [0] https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support
- protimewaster 2y ago
  I understand that, but my point is that, as someone with no Apple hardware, my money gets me essentially nothing as far as Orion goes. I'm basically funding software for everyone else when I subscribe to Kagi. There's not really accountability to the users when a bunch of them are funding software for the rest of them to use. The rest of us don't even know if Orion is any good, even if we're paying for it. It's hard to hold them accountable when I can't even try the product.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > I'm basically funding software for everyone else when I subscribe to Kagi You’re paying for a product. The search product. Like, I don’t run Linux. That doesn’t mean every product I pay for that supports Linux is somehow unaccountable to me as a customer. > not really accountability to the users when a bunch of them are funding software for the rest of them to use You can pay for Orion. Obviously if you don’t have a Mac, don’t do that.
    - protimewaster 2y ago
      My thinking is on a few ideas about accountability. One is that, since Kagi subscriptions also help fund Orion (according to the Orion website), Kagi users that don't have Apple products can't actually verify the functionality of the browser they're helping to fund. That makes accountability hard in terms of Kagi users verifying that Orion is something they're happy to be funding. Maybe I would think it sucks and rather they not spend any of my money on Orion and send the entirety of my subscription to fund search? I don't know - I can't use Orion. Also, since Kagi subscriptions help to fund Orion, Orion is clearly not accountable only to users of Orion. In theory, Kagi users who don't/can't use Orion could demand that Kagi subscriptions stop funding Orion. Or they could theoretically say, "I'll only fund it if you start selling user data to make it possible to raise additional funds for a Windows port." That's probably not something that will happen, but the idea that Orion is solely accountable to users of Orion doesn't seem to be true, since Kagi users are also involved. Hell, if it means my Kagi subscription would get cheaper, sell the data. None of my data is in there, so I don't care. I just don't think this idea of Orion being accountable solely to the users funding it is true, basically.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > since Kagi subscriptions also help fund Orion (according to the Orion website), Kagi users that don't have Apple products can't actually verify the functionality of the browser they're helping to fund Well yes, if you don’t use Orion Kagi won’t be accountable to you as an Orion user. > the idea that Orion is solely accountable to users of Orion doesn't seem to be true Nobody claimed as much. The point is Kagi has some accountability to Orion users where Mozilla has almost none to Firefox users beyond their eyeballs.

Development costs money. This is outlined in their FAQ [0]: > Are there plans for a Windows/Linux/Android version of Orion? > We currently do not have the resources to hire a new team to do any of these platforms yet. Since Orion is funded by its users only, it is entirely up to the number of subscribers and Orion+ sales we have that will enable funding a new team to make Orion for any new platform. [0] https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support

protimewaster 2y ago
I understand that, but my point is that, as someone with no Apple hardware, my money gets me essentially nothing as far as Orion goes. I'm basically funding software for everyone else when I subscribe to Kagi. There's not really accountability to the users when a bunch of them are funding software for the rest of them to use. The rest of us don't even know if Orion is any good, even if we're paying for it. It's hard to hold them accountable when I can't even try the product.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > I'm basically funding software for everyone else when I subscribe to Kagi You’re paying for a product. The search product. Like, I don’t run Linux. That doesn’t mean every product I pay for that supports Linux is somehow unaccountable to me as a customer. > not really accountability to the users when a bunch of them are funding software for the rest of them to use You can pay for Orion. Obviously if you don’t have a Mac, don’t do that.
  - protimewaster 2y ago
    My thinking is on a few ideas about accountability. One is that, since Kagi subscriptions also help fund Orion (according to the Orion website), Kagi users that don't have Apple products can't actually verify the functionality of the browser they're helping to fund. That makes accountability hard in terms of Kagi users verifying that Orion is something they're happy to be funding. Maybe I would think it sucks and rather they not spend any of my money on Orion and send the entirety of my subscription to fund search? I don't know - I can't use Orion. Also, since Kagi subscriptions help to fund Orion, Orion is clearly not accountable only to users of Orion. In theory, Kagi users who don't/can't use Orion could demand that Kagi subscriptions stop funding Orion. Or they could theoretically say, "I'll only fund it if you start selling user data to make it possible to raise additional funds for a Windows port." That's probably not something that will happen, but the idea that Orion is solely accountable to users of Orion doesn't seem to be true, since Kagi users are also involved. Hell, if it means my Kagi subscription would get cheaper, sell the data. None of my data is in there, so I don't care. I just don't think this idea of Orion being accountable solely to the users funding it is true, basically.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > since Kagi subscriptions also help fund Orion (according to the Orion website), Kagi users that don't have Apple products can't actually verify the functionality of the browser they're helping to fund Well yes, if you don’t use Orion Kagi won’t be accountable to you as an Orion user. > the idea that Orion is solely accountable to users of Orion doesn't seem to be true Nobody claimed as much. The point is Kagi has some accountability to Orion users where Mozilla has almost none to Firefox users beyond their eyeballs.