7 ms·

The weird Hewlett Packard FreeDOS option (2022)

107 points by wibbily 2y ago

dang 2y ago
Discussed at the time (of the article): The weird Hewlett Packard FreeDOS option - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389893 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389893 - May 2022 (149 comments)
ForOldHack 2y ago
It was weird, it was free and it allowed you to install firmware.
- bityard 2y ago
  I don't think you can install firmware from inside QEMU.
dingdingdang 2y ago
The real pertinent question here is: Can I install Win311 on it!?
- ndiddy 2y ago
  In theory yes, but because it's running in a VM the only way to get data into the computer is via the keyboard. You'd have to set something up like what this guy did to install Doom (except pretending to be a USB keyboard instead of a PS/2 one): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysjoh1hoIr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysjoh1hoIr8
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  [C|E|V]GA support on modern video hardware can be flaky. I have a native FreeDOS install on a Ryzen 5000 machine to run some old parallel port hardware that doesn't work under 64-bit DOSEmu2 for me. Lots of the games cause quirky video artifacts and lock op the computer in unusual ways that wouldn't happen on a legacy BIOS PC.
  - dlenski 2y ago
    > [C|E|V]GA support on modern video hardware can be flaky. Interesting. Do you think this is because the GPU’s support has bitrotted due to lack of testing? Or something else?
    - toast0 2y ago
      Lack of motivation, probably. There's a lot of fiddly details to fully cover VGA. And very few people using it still, so there you go. Kind of a shame, because some of the features are super handy for hobby OSes; scrolling the screen by moving the start address is so much nicer than scrolling by copying, but you can't do that with a frame buffer that UEFI set up for you. Text mode is handy too, although 8-bit characters is problematic; UEFI's boot services has a text mode console, but when you exit boot services, you've got to render text on your own.
somat 2y ago
The fun part about freedos is that it feels like a very modern dos environment. A lot of what you would call quality of life features compared to the last MS dos. I have always wondered why you could not have a 64-bit native dos, The answer I have come up with is that it would not be dos because it would not be compatible with dos programs. the second perhaps more important reason is that, sure dos is an operating system. but it leans really hard on the pc firmware, the bios. if you squint right, the bios could be considered the actual OS and dos just a shell on it. And the bios has a lot of legacy cruft and limitations, modern pc operating systems ditch the bios as fast as possible and lean on direct access. But in that light the modern 64-bit native dos might be the uefi shell. Conclusion. As a big unix snob, I don't really like dos all that much and it have little nostalgia for it. I suspect HP could(and do it appears) get away with a minimal console only linux install for their firmware flashing needs. but the long tail of low level dos tooling for the PC world is still hanging on.
- zozbot234 2y ago
  The UEFI shell is pretty much a glorified MS-DOG anyway.
  - fuzzfactor 2y ago
    arf
  - pwdisswordfishz 2y ago
    Woof woof
  - spauldo 2y ago
    I know that was likely a typo, but can you imagine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob baked into your firmware?
- LeoPanthera 2y ago
  While DOS does rely on the BIOS for low-level operations (especially in real mode), it is still an independent operating system. The BIOS provides essential services such as disk access, keyboard input, and screen output, but DOS has its own file system, command interpreter, and APIs. The big missing feature preventing the UEFI shell from being a modern DOS is the lack of multitasking. DOS didn't support this very well, but it did have the concept of TSRs. The UEFI shell has no equivalent.
Aaron2222 2y ago
Does anyone know what "Windows 11 Home 64 Plus" and "Windows 11 Home 64 Advanced" are (from the screenshot of the OS options HP offered for that laptop)? Most I could find out is that they appear to be OEM versions.
ltbarcly3 2y ago
It's for people who, for whatever reason, don't want to pay for the OS. They need to put something on there, so they went with something very simple and free where there's no chance of having to support it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lproven 2y ago
  You didn't read the article, did you?
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981>
    - lproven 2y ago
      [Sigh] OK. When the entire point of the article is that the FreeDOS option DOES NOT BOOT DOS then when someone did not notice that, this indicates that they did not read even the first screen of text on their phone, and that level of inactivity to me means "you are not contributing to the discussion here, you are detracting from it." Others mileage may vary. Even the mods'.
      - dredmorbius 2y ago
        FYI, I'm not saying you were wrong, or that the comment wasn't warranted. I'll often note comments which fail any apparent reading of the article ... but I generally try to do that without mentioning the fact. Numerous examples in: <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adredmorbius%20tfa&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...> And if the point seems to bear a more explicit mention, well, There Are Ways: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40837625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40837625> Trust me I feel your pain, but HN guidelines are aimed at steering threads back on track if that's remotely possible. That's usually a Good Thing of itself.
MarkusWandel 2y ago
As the article points out, of course, just a "boot something" placeholder until you wipe it and install the OS of choice. However. Suppose someone took this seriously and plugged in, say, a USB floppy drive (they exist[ed], I have one) in order to run themselves some genuinely old Wordstar or or Lotus 123 or Turbo Pascal from ancient disks they still have. Does the rabbit hole go that deep, i.e. the appropriate QEMU device mappings are in place? What about running a DOS based TCP/IP thing... would it see the ethernet port, or if absent, a USB ethernet dongle?
fithisux 2y ago
If they ship FreeDOS, then they should contribute. Drivers, 64bit evolution and hardware utilities, but nothing more.

107 points by wibbily 2y ago

dang 2y ago

Discussed at the time (of the article): The weird Hewlett Packard FreeDOS option - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389893 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31389893 - May 2022 (149 comments)

ForOldHack 2y ago

It was weird, it was free and it allowed you to install firmware.

bityard 2y ago
I don't think you can install firmware from inside QEMU.

dingdingdang 2y ago

The real pertinent question here is: Can I install Win311 on it!?

ndiddy 2y ago
In theory yes, but because it's running in a VM the only way to get data into the computer is via the keyboard. You'd have to set something up like what this guy did to install Doom (except pretending to be a USB keyboard instead of a PS/2 one): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysjoh1hoIr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysjoh1hoIr8
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
[C|E|V]GA support on modern video hardware can be flaky. I have a native FreeDOS install on a Ryzen 5000 machine to run some old parallel port hardware that doesn't work under 64-bit DOSEmu2 for me. Lots of the games cause quirky video artifacts and lock op the computer in unusual ways that wouldn't happen on a legacy BIOS PC.
- dlenski 2y ago
  > [C|E|V]GA support on modern video hardware can be flaky. Interesting. Do you think this is because the GPU’s support has bitrotted due to lack of testing? Or something else?
  - toast0 2y ago
    Lack of motivation, probably. There's a lot of fiddly details to fully cover VGA. And very few people using it still, so there you go. Kind of a shame, because some of the features are super handy for hobby OSes; scrolling the screen by moving the start address is so much nicer than scrolling by copying, but you can't do that with a frame buffer that UEFI set up for you. Text mode is handy too, although 8-bit characters is problematic; UEFI's boot services has a text mode console, but when you exit boot services, you've got to render text on your own.

somat 2y ago

The fun part about freedos is that it feels like a very modern dos environment. A lot of what you would call quality of life features compared to the last MS dos. I have always wondered why you could not have a 64-bit native dos, The answer I have come up with is that it would not be dos because it would not be compatible with dos programs. the second perhaps more important reason is that, sure dos is an operating system. but it leans really hard on the pc firmware, the bios. if you squint right, the bios could be considered the actual OS and dos just a shell on it. And the bios has a lot of legacy cruft and limitations, modern pc operating systems ditch the bios as fast as possible and lean on direct access. But in that light the modern 64-bit native dos might be the uefi shell. Conclusion. As a big unix snob, I don't really like dos all that much and it have little nostalgia for it. I suspect HP could(and do it appears) get away with a minimal console only linux install for their firmware flashing needs. but the long tail of low level dos tooling for the PC world is still hanging on.

zozbot234 2y ago
The UEFI shell is pretty much a glorified MS-DOG anyway.
- fuzzfactor 2y ago
  arf
- pwdisswordfishz 2y ago
  Woof woof
- spauldo 2y ago
  I know that was likely a typo, but can you imagine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bob baked into your firmware?
LeoPanthera 2y ago
While DOS does rely on the BIOS for low-level operations (especially in real mode), it is still an independent operating system. The BIOS provides essential services such as disk access, keyboard input, and screen output, but DOS has its own file system, command interpreter, and APIs. The big missing feature preventing the UEFI shell from being a modern DOS is the lack of multitasking. DOS didn't support this very well, but it did have the concept of TSRs. The UEFI shell has no equivalent.

Aaron2222 2y ago

Does anyone know what "Windows 11 Home 64 Plus" and "Windows 11 Home 64 Advanced" are (from the screenshot of the OS options HP offered for that laptop)? Most I could find out is that they appear to be OEM versions.

ltbarcly3 2y ago

It's for people who, for whatever reason, don't want to pay for the OS. They need to put something on there, so they went with something very simple and free where there's no chance of having to support it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lproven 2y ago
You didn't read the article, did you?
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42688981>
  - lproven 2y ago
    [Sigh] OK. When the entire point of the article is that the FreeDOS option DOES NOT BOOT DOS then when someone did not notice that, this indicates that they did not read even the first screen of text on their phone, and that level of inactivity to me means "you are not contributing to the discussion here, you are detracting from it." Others mileage may vary. Even the mods'.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      FYI, I'm not saying you were wrong, or that the comment wasn't warranted. I'll often note comments which fail any apparent reading of the article ... but I generally try to do that without mentioning the fact. Numerous examples in: <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adredmorbius%20tfa&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...> And if the point seems to bear a more explicit mention, well, There Are Ways: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40837625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40837625> Trust me I feel your pain, but HN guidelines are aimed at steering threads back on track if that's remotely possible. That's usually a Good Thing of itself.

MarkusWandel 2y ago

As the article points out, of course, just a "boot something" placeholder until you wipe it and install the OS of choice. However. Suppose someone took this seriously and plugged in, say, a USB floppy drive (they exist[ed], I have one) in order to run themselves some genuinely old Wordstar or or Lotus 123 or Turbo Pascal from ancient disks they still have. Does the rabbit hole go that deep, i.e. the appropriate QEMU device mappings are in place? What about running a DOS based TCP/IP thing... would it see the ethernet port, or if absent, a USB ethernet dongle?

fithisux 2y ago

If they ship FreeDOS, then they should contribute. Drivers, 64bit evolution and hardware utilities, but nothing more.