7 ms·

My experience as a consultant with both (local) administrations (in Germany) and much larger corporations is that the corporations weren't even close to being a

My experience as a consultant with both (local) administrations (in Germany) and much larger corporations is that the corporations weren't even close to being as dysfunctional. I'm certain there are great parts of government, but I've never experienced it, and all I'm hearing from friends who work at the federal level is that it's no different there.

alephnerd 2y ago
Germany ain't the US. Organizational culture in one might be different than the other.
- luckylion 2y ago
  I'm sure they are. Yet the arguments for why government is doing just fine and large corporations are at least as bad are very similar, so there seem to be some similarities as well.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > so there seem to be some similarities as well. Any similarity is only at the surface level, because the entire corpora of case law, administrative procedure acts, and past rulings are going to cause entirely distinct dysfunctions. Both Gonorrhea and the Plague create bubous, but their causes and cures are entirely different. It's the same with reforming organizational culture.
    - luckylion 2y ago
      And yet the organizational outcomes are surprisingly similar when you zoom in. Maybe culture is the only thing that matters and incentives don't at all, but I doubt it.
- skissane 2y ago
  I think many of the factors which can make public sector entities less efficient - e.g. harder to get rid of underperforming employees, fewer institutional rewards for reducing unnecessary expenditures - apply broadly across countries. I think something Germany and the US have in common, compared to many other countries, is less blatant corruption in government, due to strong laws against it.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > I think many of the factors which can make public sector entities less efficient - e.g. harder to get rid of underperforming employees, fewer institutional rewards for reducing unnecessary expenditures - apply broadly across countries It's much easier to remove a Federal Employee in the US compared to Germany. The "give 3 documents" rule makes it easy to not have to deal with lengthy arbitration. At worst, it's comparable to private sector hiring/firing rules in Germany. Furthemore, hiring practices for federal jobs are much more decentralized in the US compared to Germany. And finally, the entire corpora of statutes, legislation, and administrative policies in the US is significantly different from that in Germany, such that any surface level similarities are basically convergent evolution.
blactuary 2y ago
Has Germany had one of two major parties spending decades trying to undermine government to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that government is bad by definition? We are 45 years into an intentional effort to sabotage public services to convince people they don't work, to cut taxes for the wealthiest people who don't want to fund them
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Germany has issues as well becuase it's been a de facto austerity state since 2009 due to their debt break, but the American administrative structure is very different from Germany's, so it's an unfair comparison in either direction. The only countries remotely similar to the US might be Canada and Australia.
  - skissane 2y ago
    > but the American administrative structure is very different from Germany's, so it's an unfair comparison either direction. > The only countries remotely similar to the US might be Canada and Australia. Like the US, Canada and Australia are federations - but Germany is too. Unlike the US, Canada, Australia and Germany all have parliamentary rather than presidential systems So I’m not sure what you are suggesting that Canada and Australia have in common with the US but Germany doesn’t (obviously English and a common law legal system, but I doubt either makes a big difference to government employment)
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      All federations aren't equal, and administrative procedures and laws are very distinct country to country. > but I doubt either makes a big difference to government employment It does, because employment law (and any other form of law) is largely built on top of a mixture of administrative policy acts along with past rulings and cases. Fundamentally, Germany and the US are not comparable becuase there are very significant differences between past case law along with administrative hiring procedures. IMO, the only large federations structurally comparable to Germany are probably Italy, and maybe France or Spain.
surgical_fire 2y ago
My experience of working in corporations in more than 2 decades, from startups to FAANG, is that those are riddled with mismanagement and poor decision making, be it for incompetence, egocentrism, ignorance, etc and so forth. The only difference is that corporations tend to be optimized for generating profits, all else be damned. I certainly wouldn't trust corporations with government functions.
- luckylion 2y ago
  It depends on what you consider government functions, but I'd be cautious as well. And while the German's government eventual recognition that fax machines are no longer the state of the art is an extreme case, I believe it's exemplifies the problem. Private companies, both large and small, have done that much earlier. Those profits they're chasing above all else are a powerful driver for innovation and optimization.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > Those profits they're chasing above all else are a powerful driver for innovation and optimization. They are also a powerful driver for exploitation both of employees and of the general public. Be careful with what you wish for. I certainly prefer dealing with a public sector that still operate on fax machines but that still may fundamentally work for the public good (as inefficient as it may be), than with a corporation that would bleed me dry if it would means some asshole CEO makes a few extra bucks in his annual comp.
    - luckylion 2y ago
      > They are also a powerful driver for exploitation both of employees and of the general public. Yes, but you'll always have that. An average person working for the government, be that as an employee or as an official, will optimize their work load and try to do the minimum amount required. That's individually much less of a problem than that greedy CEO you envision, but it adds up in large numbers and becomes a problem if not corrected - and there's no strong incentive to correct it when you play with the infinite money hack enabled. Human nature has to be taken into account either way. It's just a lot easier when you acknowledge that it exists. Massively oversimplified: that's why the Soviets had to build walls to make it hard for their people to leave and murder those who tried. You can ignore human nature, but human nature won't ignore you.

alephnerd 2y ago

Germany ain't the US. Organizational culture in one might be different than the other.

luckylion 2y ago
I'm sure they are. Yet the arguments for why government is doing just fine and large corporations are at least as bad are very similar, so there seem to be some similarities as well.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > so there seem to be some similarities as well. Any similarity is only at the surface level, because the entire corpora of case law, administrative procedure acts, and past rulings are going to cause entirely distinct dysfunctions. Both Gonorrhea and the Plague create bubous, but their causes and cures are entirely different. It's the same with reforming organizational culture.
  - luckylion 2y ago
    And yet the organizational outcomes are surprisingly similar when you zoom in. Maybe culture is the only thing that matters and incentives don't at all, but I doubt it.
skissane 2y ago
I think many of the factors which can make public sector entities less efficient - e.g. harder to get rid of underperforming employees, fewer institutional rewards for reducing unnecessary expenditures - apply broadly across countries. I think something Germany and the US have in common, compared to many other countries, is less blatant corruption in government, due to strong laws against it.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > I think many of the factors which can make public sector entities less efficient - e.g. harder to get rid of underperforming employees, fewer institutional rewards for reducing unnecessary expenditures - apply broadly across countries It's much easier to remove a Federal Employee in the US compared to Germany. The "give 3 documents" rule makes it easy to not have to deal with lengthy arbitration. At worst, it's comparable to private sector hiring/firing rules in Germany. Furthemore, hiring practices for federal jobs are much more decentralized in the US compared to Germany. And finally, the entire corpora of statutes, legislation, and administrative policies in the US is significantly different from that in Germany, such that any surface level similarities are basically convergent evolution.

blactuary 2y ago

Has Germany had one of two major parties spending decades trying to undermine government to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that government is bad by definition? We are 45 years into an intentional effort to sabotage public services to convince people they don't work, to cut taxes for the wealthiest people who don't want to fund them

alephnerd 2y ago
Germany has issues as well becuase it's been a de facto austerity state since 2009 due to their debt break, but the American administrative structure is very different from Germany's, so it's an unfair comparison in either direction. The only countries remotely similar to the US might be Canada and Australia.
- skissane 2y ago
  > but the American administrative structure is very different from Germany's, so it's an unfair comparison either direction. > The only countries remotely similar to the US might be Canada and Australia. Like the US, Canada and Australia are federations - but Germany is too. Unlike the US, Canada, Australia and Germany all have parliamentary rather than presidential systems So I’m not sure what you are suggesting that Canada and Australia have in common with the US but Germany doesn’t (obviously English and a common law legal system, but I doubt either makes a big difference to government employment)
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    All federations aren't equal, and administrative procedures and laws are very distinct country to country. > but I doubt either makes a big difference to government employment It does, because employment law (and any other form of law) is largely built on top of a mixture of administrative policy acts along with past rulings and cases. Fundamentally, Germany and the US are not comparable becuase there are very significant differences between past case law along with administrative hiring procedures. IMO, the only large federations structurally comparable to Germany are probably Italy, and maybe France or Spain.

surgical_fire 2y ago

My experience of working in corporations in more than 2 decades, from startups to FAANG, is that those are riddled with mismanagement and poor decision making, be it for incompetence, egocentrism, ignorance, etc and so forth. The only difference is that corporations tend to be optimized for generating profits, all else be damned. I certainly wouldn't trust corporations with government functions.

luckylion 2y ago
It depends on what you consider government functions, but I'd be cautious as well. And while the German's government eventual recognition that fax machines are no longer the state of the art is an extreme case, I believe it's exemplifies the problem. Private companies, both large and small, have done that much earlier. Those profits they're chasing above all else are a powerful driver for innovation and optimization.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > Those profits they're chasing above all else are a powerful driver for innovation and optimization. They are also a powerful driver for exploitation both of employees and of the general public. Be careful with what you wish for. I certainly prefer dealing with a public sector that still operate on fax machines but that still may fundamentally work for the public good (as inefficient as it may be), than with a corporation that would bleed me dry if it would means some asshole CEO makes a few extra bucks in his annual comp.
  - luckylion 2y ago
    > They are also a powerful driver for exploitation both of employees and of the general public. Yes, but you'll always have that. An average person working for the government, be that as an employee or as an official, will optimize their work load and try to do the minimum amount required. That's individually much less of a problem than that greedy CEO you envision, but it adds up in large numbers and becomes a problem if not corrected - and there's no strong incentive to correct it when you play with the infinite money hack enabled. Human nature has to be taken into account either way. It's just a lot easier when you acknowledge that it exists. Massively oversimplified: that's why the Soviets had to build walls to make it hard for their people to leave and murder those who tried. You can ignore human nature, but human nature won't ignore you.