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IMO we don’t need to attribute malice to it, which will drag everyone into a debate about what’s going on inside the clearly broken minds of a few rich men. Th

IMO we don’t need to attribute malice to it, which will drag everyone into a debate about what’s going on inside the clearly broken minds of a few rich men. The sheer incompetence of it all is disqualifying by itself. In my experiences arguing with MAGA, the incompetence argument lands a lot more convincingly than the evil argument.

croes 2y ago
Given the sheer amount of incompetence malice becomes a lot more probable
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  I’m not saying what’s true, I’m saying what is useful to argue. The goal is to convince other people, not to rah-rah the already-believers. Trivially: these websites go back up in a few days, is that more convincingly malice or just “these people don’t know how to operate a government?”
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    Democratic turnout was a problem in the 2024 election. Rah-rah is important, like it or not.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      And do you have evidence to suggest more people would’ve been activated by more “he’s a fascist” messaging?
      - smallmancontrov 2y ago
        You open with "IMO" but want evidence from me? Lol. There were many dems who remembered Trump as the funny orange man, didn't really care to turn out against him, and fell for the "both sides bad" messaging that was absolutely rampant on the left (esp with regard to Kamala and Palestine). So no, I don't think the most important rally-the-base rhetoric was to ratchet up "Trump is Fascist" so much as suppress "Both Sides Bad" while we had an election to win.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Both sides were bad. Biden and Kamala were terrible candidates for the Democrats to run, and their campaign positioning lacked a unifying aspirational message. What was Kamala's 2024 campaign slogan?
        someothherguyy 2y ago
        We're not going back?
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Exactly.
        datavirtue 2y ago
        Which was a horrendously stupid tag line. All people saw was "prices not going back." Everyone in America remembers simpler, better times. 1990s race relations alone were far better than they are now. I saw that slogan and cringed immediately.
        datavirtue 2y ago
        Sorry downvoters, I'm no MAGA cultist, it's just the worst slogan ever.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        "IMO" means "in my opinion." You made a statement as a fact, which is why I asked for evidence. Lol. Agreed the "both sides bad" messaging was a huge factor here. But that's exactly why we should talk about these fuckups as questions of competence. They are unambiguous evidence of a difference in both sides' ability to actually operate a government!
  - croes 2y ago
    Then incompetence as as reason isn’t useful. If it’s malice then it’s an attack. You have react differently to an attack than to incompetence. The EU made the same mistake with Trump‘s appeasement to Putin. They hoped it’s some kind of clever negotiation tactic but they learned it’s not. It’s just two autocrats teaming up at the expense of Ukraine.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      That is not even close to analogous. Meh, feel free to disagree. How many MAGA voters do you talk to on a daily basis?
      - croes 2y ago
        In person? None. Online? More than enough and they show the same kind of malice like our own type of MAGA: AfD voters
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- derbOac 2y ago
  To borrow a phrase, any sufficiently incompetent organization becomes indistinguishable from malice. Although I agree with others' sentiment that focusing on incompetence can be more persuasive to certain segments of society.
johannes1234321 2y ago
It is not incompetence to put people with no relevant experience into cabinet positions. It's purpose. Destruction with a huge amount of distraction is the purpose.
lkrubner 2y ago
What we are seeing is clearly an act of malice. We need to be honest about that. Trying to obfuscate what we are seeing helps no one. We should use plain English and talk in a straightforward way about what is happening.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  “Helps no one” except probably winning elections, given the “he’s a fascist” messaging (while true) didn’t seem to resonate.
  - throwaway894345 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - lesuorac 2y ago
      I'm not sure the crying wolf is accurate. It's like shouting that the bridge is going to collapse because you see a few supports buckle. Anybody with eyes can see the bridge is standing and heavy ass trucks are driving on top of it. Trumps first term was relatively neutered because people just refused to do what he asked. Those supports are gone now though and like the bridge collapse the observable changes happened slowly and then suddenly all at once.
      - throwaway894345 2y ago
        I would agree with you if I had been talking about using "fascism" to describe first-term Trump and his hardcore supporters, but I was very specifically referring to the application of the term toward liberals and progressives who were deemed too moderate on identity politics. And to be clear, by "too moderate", I mean stuff like "advocating nonviolent protests" and "criticizing the weaponization of Title IX at universities". I think warning about Trump fascism was appropriate and legitimate, but I think using the label as a lazy cudgel to get liberals and progressives to toe a poorly-conceived line did a tremendous amount to erode the term's significance and rhetorical power.
sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment https://www.ft.com/content/02217acf-ac64-49c2-acd5-ef4f107f014c https://www.ft.com/content/02217acf-ac64-49c2-acd5-ef4f107f0... https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/techno-fascism-comes-to-america-elon-musk https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/techno-fas... There can be incompetence and malice together in all this. The malicious often leverage the incompetent to further their goals. One way to get more people on board with destroying government structures is to render the government structures as ineffectual and incompetent as possible.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  I didn’t say there isn’t malice.
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
    You want to downplay the malice to avoid arguments about whether it's really malicious. I want to spotlight the malice because it's really fucking bad and a lot of people are going to get hurt, and that's not an accidental outcome.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      And when these websites are back up? What then?

croes 2y ago

Given the sheer amount of incompetence malice becomes a lot more probable

llamaimperative 2y ago
I’m not saying what’s true, I’m saying what is useful to argue. The goal is to convince other people, not to rah-rah the already-believers. Trivially: these websites go back up in a few days, is that more convincingly malice or just “these people don’t know how to operate a government?”
- smallmancontrov 2y ago
  Democratic turnout was a problem in the 2024 election. Rah-rah is important, like it or not.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    And do you have evidence to suggest more people would’ve been activated by more “he’s a fascist” messaging?
    - smallmancontrov 2y ago
      You open with "IMO" but want evidence from me? Lol. There were many dems who remembered Trump as the funny orange man, didn't really care to turn out against him, and fell for the "both sides bad" messaging that was absolutely rampant on the left (esp with regard to Kamala and Palestine). So no, I don't think the most important rally-the-base rhetoric was to ratchet up "Trump is Fascist" so much as suppress "Both Sides Bad" while we had an election to win.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        Both sides were bad. Biden and Kamala were terrible candidates for the Democrats to run, and their campaign positioning lacked a unifying aspirational message. What was Kamala's 2024 campaign slogan?
        someothherguyy 2y ago
        We're not going back?
        ethbr1 2y ago
        Exactly.
        datavirtue 2y ago
        Which was a horrendously stupid tag line. All people saw was "prices not going back." Everyone in America remembers simpler, better times. 1990s race relations alone were far better than they are now. I saw that slogan and cringed immediately.
        datavirtue 2y ago
        Sorry downvoters, I'm no MAGA cultist, it's just the worst slogan ever.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        "IMO" means "in my opinion." You made a statement as a fact, which is why I asked for evidence. Lol. Agreed the "both sides bad" messaging was a huge factor here. But that's exactly why we should talk about these fuckups as questions of competence. They are unambiguous evidence of a difference in both sides' ability to actually operate a government!
- croes 2y ago
  Then incompetence as as reason isn’t useful. If it’s malice then it’s an attack. You have react differently to an attack than to incompetence. The EU made the same mistake with Trump‘s appeasement to Putin. They hoped it’s some kind of clever negotiation tactic but they learned it’s not. It’s just two autocrats teaming up at the expense of Ukraine.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    That is not even close to analogous. Meh, feel free to disagree. How many MAGA voters do you talk to on a daily basis?
    - croes 2y ago
      In person? None. Online? More than enough and they show the same kind of malice like our own type of MAGA: AfD voters
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
derbOac 2y ago
To borrow a phrase, any sufficiently incompetent organization becomes indistinguishable from malice. Although I agree with others' sentiment that focusing on incompetence can be more persuasive to certain segments of society.

johannes1234321 2y ago

It is not incompetence to put people with no relevant experience into cabinet positions. It's purpose. Destruction with a huge amount of distraction is the purpose.

lkrubner 2y ago

What we are seeing is clearly an act of malice. We need to be honest about that. Trying to obfuscate what we are seeing helps no one. We should use plain English and talk in a straightforward way about what is happening.

llamaimperative 2y ago
“Helps no one” except probably winning elections, given the “he’s a fascist” messaging (while true) didn’t seem to resonate.
- throwaway894345 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    I'm not sure the crying wolf is accurate. It's like shouting that the bridge is going to collapse because you see a few supports buckle. Anybody with eyes can see the bridge is standing and heavy ass trucks are driving on top of it. Trumps first term was relatively neutered because people just refused to do what he asked. Those supports are gone now though and like the bridge collapse the observable changes happened slowly and then suddenly all at once.
    - throwaway894345 2y ago
      I would agree with you if I had been talking about using "fascism" to describe first-term Trump and his hardcore supporters, but I was very specifically referring to the application of the term toward liberals and progressives who were deemed too moderate on identity politics. And to be clear, by "too moderate", I mean stuff like "advocating nonviolent protests" and "criticizing the weaponization of Title IX at universities". I think warning about Trump fascism was appropriate and legitimate, but I think using the label as a lazy cudgel to get liberals and progressives to toe a poorly-conceived line did a tremendous amount to erode the term's significance and rhetorical power.

sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment https://www.ft.com/content/02217acf-ac64-49c2-acd5-ef4f107f014c https://www.ft.com/content/02217acf-ac64-49c2-acd5-ef4f107f0... https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/techno-fascism-comes-to-america-elon-musk https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/techno-fas... There can be incompetence and malice together in all this. The malicious often leverage the incompetent to further their goals. One way to get more people on board with destroying government structures is to render the government structures as ineffectual and incompetent as possible.

llamaimperative 2y ago
I didn’t say there isn’t malice.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  You want to downplay the malice to avoid arguments about whether it's really malicious. I want to spotlight the malice because it's really fucking bad and a lot of people are going to get hurt, and that's not an accidental outcome.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    And when these websites are back up? What then?