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[Author of the site here] It seems we're actually in agreement here :) You say that any option will be social engineered, and then you go on to explain an opt

[Author of the site here] It seems we're actually in agreement here :) You say that any option will be social engineered, and then you go on to explain an option that Apple has already implemented that you don't believe is susceptible to social engineering. Grandma could theoretically install AltStore, and then proceed to install malicious apps from unknown sources, right now, if she really wanted to. But she won't, because it's too complicated. I'm not asking for an easy way to sideload. I wouldn't mind if it was made even more difficult than it is now, in fact. All I want is an officially-supported option to do so that isn't prohibitively expensive. An example I provided on the website is Google's ChromeOS. They make it difficult enough to enable developer mode that it's practically invulnerable to social engineering attacks. It's much more difficult to enable sideloading on a Chromebook than it is on an iOS device. > If you are dead set on it just mentally map in your head the price of a 1000$ device to 1100$ and be done with it No, it's $100/yr, every year into the foreseeable future, and the cost could change at any time without prior notice. If you stop paying, your apps will stop working, so if you've grown attached to and have become dependent upon your sideloaded apps, it's quite unlikely you'll stop paying. The Apple Developer Program is not intended as an option to enable sideloading on your device, and it never was. Apple only wants you signing up if you plan on submitting apps to the App Store, which is a benefit you're completely missing out on if you use it exclusively for sideloading. > "if you really care about it, you can do it" is a fair state of affairs I would 100% agree, if that were an accurate description of reality, but unfortunately it's not. If you can't afford $100/yr, then no, you cannot do it. It doesn't matter how much technical knowledge you have; you simply cannot do it. > (I am a bit exaggerating the point but just because it seems like almost everyone is on the other side of the argument) You and I must not be reading the same website? There is a very large anti-sideloading presence here on Hacker News. Most of it is based on strawman arguments and flawed assumptions, but it's there, and surfaces on almost every thread discussing the topic.

throwaway290 2y ago
> You say that any option will be social engineered, and then you go on to explain an option that Apple has already implemented that you don't believe is susceptible to social engineering. An option like "a toggle in settings" like the other guy suggested will be social engineered. But option like "a possibility" available with hoops to software engineers or tech savvy people can't be. > Grandma could theoretically install AltStore, Only in EU I guess? Hopefully it stays there > No, it's $100/yr, every year into the foreseeable future OK. Add couple more hundred bucks. Doesn't change the point. > and the cost could change at any time without prior notice Well it all comes back to "we are at the mercy of the maker of the product we buy". From my vantage point allowing easy sideloading and alt stores are changes I don't want > There is a very large anti-sideloading presence here on Hacker News Maybe we read different sites... Basically everybody is for sideloading and alt stores 1) big corporations who want to run their own stores and not pay Apple a cut for creating and maintaining the hardware and ecosystem 2) techie freedom maximalists 3) regular people who want to pirate apps and not pay small-time developers and don't realize security implications Except for the second group I very much disagree with all of them and as I said the second group can already do it with some hoops
- DownrightNifty 2y ago
  > But option like "a possibility" available with hoops to software engineers or tech savvy people can't be. Okay, then the only disagreement we seem to have is that you think that everyone who sideloads should continue to give a yearly donation of $100 to Apple (which they don't need or want) for the rest of their lives? That is a very strange perspective. Keep in mind that I would fully understand if you don't think Apple should be forced by governments to provide sideloading for free; that's a separate issue, and I don't explicitly advocate for it on my website. The EU legislation has already passed; I'm just explaining what it means for tech enthusiasts. > Only in EU I guess? I'm referring to the "classic" version of AltStore. The EU version only allows you to install Apple-approved apps and as such doesn't present any additional risk for malware. The classic version is available worldwide and it makes use of signing certificates from Xcode. https://faq.altstore.io/altstore-classic/how-to-install-altstore-windows https://faq.altstore.io/altstore-classic/how-to-install-alts... > OK. Add couple more hundred bucks. Doesn't change the point. It absolutely does change the point. You claimed that anyone with the required technical skills can sideload, but that isn't true; they need to be able to afford and justify spending an additional $8.33 every month to access a feature which is free on every other mainstream computing device. > From my vantage point allowing easy sideloading and alt stores are changes I don't want I don't want that either, as I already said. > 1) big corporations who want to run their own stores and not pay Apple a cut for creating and maintaining the hardware and ecosystem I don't have any sympathy for Epic Games either. > 3) regular people who want to pirate apps and not pay small-time developers and don't realize security implications Sideloading doesn't inherently provide the ability to pirate apps. All iOS apps are encrypted and the binaries can't be accessed by other apps; the only way to obtain them is through jailbreaking, and that's something which probably won't exist forever. There's also of course unbreakable cryptographic measures such as remote attestation that Apple could employ if the problem grows into something too bad.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    Okay, this view seems perhaps more nuanced than what I expect from a typical argument. Food for thought I guess. I don't fully get how sideloading won't enable piracy and ruin solo devs but I'll look into it. > I don't have any sympathy for Epic Games either Maybe it was astroturfing but when this was on the news HN discussion was basically back to back people supporting Epic, one reason I feel like it's lopsided here...

throwaway290 2y ago

> You say that any option will be social engineered, and then you go on to explain an option that Apple has already implemented that you don't believe is susceptible to social engineering. An option like "a toggle in settings" like the other guy suggested will be social engineered. But option like "a possibility" available with hoops to software engineers or tech savvy people can't be. > Grandma could theoretically install AltStore, Only in EU I guess? Hopefully it stays there > No, it's $100/yr, every year into the foreseeable future OK. Add couple more hundred bucks. Doesn't change the point. > and the cost could change at any time without prior notice Well it all comes back to "we are at the mercy of the maker of the product we buy". From my vantage point allowing easy sideloading and alt stores are changes I don't want > There is a very large anti-sideloading presence here on Hacker News Maybe we read different sites... Basically everybody is for sideloading and alt stores 1) big corporations who want to run their own stores and not pay Apple a cut for creating and maintaining the hardware and ecosystem 2) techie freedom maximalists 3) regular people who want to pirate apps and not pay small-time developers and don't realize security implications Except for the second group I very much disagree with all of them and as I said the second group can already do it with some hoops

DownrightNifty 2y ago
> But option like "a possibility" available with hoops to software engineers or tech savvy people can't be. Okay, then the only disagreement we seem to have is that you think that everyone who sideloads should continue to give a yearly donation of $100 to Apple (which they don't need or want) for the rest of their lives? That is a very strange perspective. Keep in mind that I would fully understand if you don't think Apple should be forced by governments to provide sideloading for free; that's a separate issue, and I don't explicitly advocate for it on my website. The EU legislation has already passed; I'm just explaining what it means for tech enthusiasts. > Only in EU I guess? I'm referring to the "classic" version of AltStore. The EU version only allows you to install Apple-approved apps and as such doesn't present any additional risk for malware. The classic version is available worldwide and it makes use of signing certificates from Xcode. https://faq.altstore.io/altstore-classic/how-to-install-altstore-windows https://faq.altstore.io/altstore-classic/how-to-install-alts... > OK. Add couple more hundred bucks. Doesn't change the point. It absolutely does change the point. You claimed that anyone with the required technical skills can sideload, but that isn't true; they need to be able to afford and justify spending an additional $8.33 every month to access a feature which is free on every other mainstream computing device. > From my vantage point allowing easy sideloading and alt stores are changes I don't want I don't want that either, as I already said. > 1) big corporations who want to run their own stores and not pay Apple a cut for creating and maintaining the hardware and ecosystem I don't have any sympathy for Epic Games either. > 3) regular people who want to pirate apps and not pay small-time developers and don't realize security implications Sideloading doesn't inherently provide the ability to pirate apps. All iOS apps are encrypted and the binaries can't be accessed by other apps; the only way to obtain them is through jailbreaking, and that's something which probably won't exist forever. There's also of course unbreakable cryptographic measures such as remote attestation that Apple could employ if the problem grows into something too bad.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  Okay, this view seems perhaps more nuanced than what I expect from a typical argument. Food for thought I guess. I don't fully get how sideloading won't enable piracy and ruin solo devs but I'll look into it. > I don't have any sympathy for Epic Games either Maybe it was astroturfing but when this was on the news HN discussion was basically back to back people supporting Epic, one reason I feel like it's lopsided here...