4 ms·

Not many will take a massive pay cut only to pay more taxes

by nxm 2y ago

realusername 2y ago
There's bigger problems in the US for a researcher than just the salary in the US nowadays. That salary comparison was valid pre-Trump.
- hansvm 2y ago
  > salary comparison was valid pre-Trump Is it not valid now?
  - realusername 2y ago
    Not anymore no, the research environment is even more important than the salary itself.
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Salaries must be weighted by risk. Right now, there is a high risk that researchers funded by grants or working in government labs will lose their jobs and faculty will lose their grants and labs. Industry researchers are in a more stable situation, even though layoffs may be more common than on the average. And if we focus specifically on the academia, American salaries have never been that high. Sure the numbers in the paycheck are bigger than in most countries, but the cost of living is also high. Particularly because good universities are often in very expensive areas, such as California, New York, or Boston. I've worked at a foreign university where grad students on dual income could buy a starter home. Now I'm at an American university, where you need to be tenured faculty on dual income to afford a similar home.
    - realusername 2y ago
      On top of those issues there's also a wave of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia from the Trump government. When the US model used to be to attract top worldwide researchers, that's pretty much the targeted demographics.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      > I've worked at a foreign university where grad students on dual income could buy a starter home. Where? And why didn't you stay?
      - jltsiren 2y ago
        Finland. Back when I was in the job market and looking for a permanent position, we had a rather silly government that did poorly justified budget cuts. Academic positions were scarce at the time. I was looking for a position in Europe, but I somehow ended up accepting an offer from the US. I had never thought seriously about moving to the US, but when you are in the academia, you learn to take the opportunities you can find. That used to be the American advantage. You had a less competitive academic job market and higher chances of winning grants. The downsides were a bit lower position in the social and economic hierarchy than in Europe. And the American way of life, which is not for everyone.
scrollaway 2y ago
You’re incorrect. Many will and do. US life is more plentiful in terms of cash but not in terms of hard value. Why do you think we get so many American tourists? Unfortunately Europe is full of self inflicted wounds, especially around entrepreneurship, but we are working on those.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > Why do you think we get so many American tourists? Because the US is a young country compared to most of Europe?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tracerbulletx 2y ago
  Listen I'm not a supporter of this administration but what is this argument? As if there aren't also tons of tourists coming to America. Tourism has little to do with getting people to immigrate.
Den_VR 2y ago
It’s an odd phenomena to see someone refute personal observations. Something to consider, a huge number of people feel personally alienated and under threat of harm by the current administration’s party rhetoric. Those people may, bizarrely, value life and liberty over top dollar. The revulsion expressed on the matter of taxes may also seem odd to the people for whom paying taxes means the state can provide for their safety and wellbeing.
hansvm 2y ago
I've run the numbers a few times for every EU tech-adjacent job I'm eligible for. Except for some opportunities in France, I'd have a lower proportional tax rate (and, except for in France, I'd have enough of a lower proportional tax rate that the free healthcare makes up the difference). The US doesn't actually have low taxes. What it does have is extremely high wages, and despite my inclinations to the contrary I'm absolutely staying for the next year or three, but taxes aren't to blame there. A small number of tech oligarchs made that possible (FANG driving up wages for certain skillsets).
NalNezumi 2y ago
I'd say this is a self-fulfilling prophecy of the American social structure. Sure, in America why would anyone move from State A to State B to get less paid and pay more taxes. The social conditions are (in a wide-stroke) the same. This is ofc not the case if you move to say, Europe or SK/Japan. The amount of money you need to live a similar socio-economic lifestyle is different. And we already know that many people don't put certain value to increased income past a certain threshold (people want to feel safe and well-off; not necessarily be a millionare). We are in the HN/US-Tech bubble so ofc it feels like "everyone want to be the next Zucc with their startup" but if you once leave that bubble, you'll notice that most people are not a over-fitted model to one metric called income.
prairiedogg 2y ago
Economics are not the only considerations at play. Even if economic considerations do dominate, the social safety nets of many European countries offer attractive alternatives to their US counterparts, even as they existed before Trump. For instance, in the deeply flawed US health-care system you risk medical bankruptcy in the case of serious illness or accidents even if you do have insurance due to policy limits. Insurers will fight tooth and nail to prevent paying out claims. Some folks with chronic illnesses don't want to be tied to their high-paying jobs just so they can have good insurance and some healthy folks want a health insurance policy that won't disappear when they need it most. Didn't mean for this to be a wall of text. Basically, money's not everything, and even if it was, it could still make sense for a lot of folks from the US to want to move to Europe.
j7ake 2y ago
If you have kids the math works out in favour for many European countries.

Not many will take a massive pay cut only to pay more taxes

by nxm 2y ago

Not many will take a massive pay cut only to pay more taxes

There's bigger problems in the US for a researcher than just the salary in the US nowadays. That salary comparison was valid pre-Trump.

hansvm 2y ago
> salary comparison was valid pre-Trump Is it not valid now?
- realusername 2y ago
  Not anymore no, the research environment is even more important than the salary itself.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Salaries must be weighted by risk. Right now, there is a high risk that researchers funded by grants or working in government labs will lose their jobs and faculty will lose their grants and labs. Industry researchers are in a more stable situation, even though layoffs may be more common than on the average. And if we focus specifically on the academia, American salaries have never been that high. Sure the numbers in the paycheck are bigger than in most countries, but the cost of living is also high. Particularly because good universities are often in very expensive areas, such as California, New York, or Boston. I've worked at a foreign university where grad students on dual income could buy a starter home. Now I'm at an American university, where you need to be tenured faculty on dual income to afford a similar home.
  - realusername 2y ago
    On top of those issues there's also a wave of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia from the Trump government. When the US model used to be to attract top worldwide researchers, that's pretty much the targeted demographics.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > I've worked at a foreign university where grad students on dual income could buy a starter home. Where? And why didn't you stay?
    - jltsiren 2y ago
      Finland. Back when I was in the job market and looking for a permanent position, we had a rather silly government that did poorly justified budget cuts. Academic positions were scarce at the time. I was looking for a position in Europe, but I somehow ended up accepting an offer from the US. I had never thought seriously about moving to the US, but when you are in the academia, you learn to take the opportunities you can find. That used to be the American advantage. You had a less competitive academic job market and higher chances of winning grants. The downsides were a bit lower position in the social and economic hierarchy than in Europe. And the American way of life, which is not for everyone.

scrollaway 2y ago

You’re incorrect. Many will and do. US life is more plentiful in terms of cash but not in terms of hard value. Why do you think we get so many American tourists? Unfortunately Europe is full of self inflicted wounds, especially around entrepreneurship, but we are working on those.

cyberax 2y ago
> Why do you think we get so many American tourists? Because the US is a young country compared to most of Europe?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tracerbulletx 2y ago
Listen I'm not a supporter of this administration but what is this argument? As if there aren't also tons of tourists coming to America. Tourism has little to do with getting people to immigrate.

Den_VR 2y ago

It’s an odd phenomena to see someone refute personal observations. Something to consider, a huge number of people feel personally alienated and under threat of harm by the current administration’s party rhetoric. Those people may, bizarrely, value life and liberty over top dollar. The revulsion expressed on the matter of taxes may also seem odd to the people for whom paying taxes means the state can provide for their safety and wellbeing.

hansvm 2y ago

I've run the numbers a few times for every EU tech-adjacent job I'm eligible for. Except for some opportunities in France, I'd have a lower proportional tax rate (and, except for in France, I'd have enough of a lower proportional tax rate that the free healthcare makes up the difference). The US doesn't actually have low taxes. What it does have is extremely high wages, and despite my inclinations to the contrary I'm absolutely staying for the next year or three, but taxes aren't to blame there. A small number of tech oligarchs made that possible (FANG driving up wages for certain skillsets).

NalNezumi 2y ago

I'd say this is a self-fulfilling prophecy of the American social structure. Sure, in America why would anyone move from State A to State B to get less paid and pay more taxes. The social conditions are (in a wide-stroke) the same. This is ofc not the case if you move to say, Europe or SK/Japan. The amount of money you need to live a similar socio-economic lifestyle is different. And we already know that many people don't put certain value to increased income past a certain threshold (people want to feel safe and well-off; not necessarily be a millionare). We are in the HN/US-Tech bubble so ofc it feels like "everyone want to be the next Zucc with their startup" but if you once leave that bubble, you'll notice that most people are not a over-fitted model to one metric called income.

prairiedogg 2y ago

Economics are not the only considerations at play. Even if economic considerations do dominate, the social safety nets of many European countries offer attractive alternatives to their US counterparts, even as they existed before Trump. For instance, in the deeply flawed US health-care system you risk medical bankruptcy in the case of serious illness or accidents even if you do have insurance due to policy limits. Insurers will fight tooth and nail to prevent paying out claims. Some folks with chronic illnesses don't want to be tied to their high-paying jobs just so they can have good insurance and some healthy folks want a health insurance policy that won't disappear when they need it most. Didn't mean for this to be a wall of text. Basically, money's not everything, and even if it was, it could still make sense for a lot of folks from the US to want to move to Europe.

j7ake 2y ago

If you have kids the math works out in favour for many European countries.