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We really need a silicon foundry model again, somewhere somehow, where folks can get experienced deigning chips. America's such a technology hub because of our

We really need a silicon foundry model again, somewhere somehow, where folks can get experienced deigning chips. America's such a technology hub because of our silicon foundry, because of MOSIS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSIS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSIS Carver Mead & Lynn Conway got countless students & interested parties out there, making chips. Introduction to VLSI Design was a book, but also a whole practice of getting out there and doing the thing for real. So so so much innovation & creativity followed. Efabless felt like such a great hope that the tradition could continue, that maybe perhaps we could have a new age of newcomers also starting to make chips.

ForTheKidz 2y ago
RIP Lynn Conway. Huge loss to the industry. I hadn't realized she had passed until now.
throwaway_3133 2y ago
[dead]
throwaway3572 2y ago
It’s still possible to get a chip made, via MPW, from SkyWater. And you can still use all the open source stuff, like the eFabless pad frame, if you want. But you’ll have to work with SkyWater directly which does require various business agreements to be in place. See more here: https://www.skywatertechnology.com/technology-and-design-enablement/mpw-programs/ https://www.skywatertechnology.com/technology-and-design-ena...
- 15155 2y ago
  > require various business agreements to be in place. I assume they require an NDA for their PDK? Or can projects still be meaningfully open-source with the existing one?
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    SkyWater's 130nm has been used for all (most?) of the Efabless × Google MPW (multi project wafer) runs. That PDK was open sourced as part of that initial effort. https://www.skywatertechnology.com/first-google-sponsored-mpw-shuttle-launched-at-skywater-with-40-open-source-community-submitted-designs/ https://www.skywatertechnology.com/first-google-sponsored-mp... https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk There's a bunch of other PDKs running around now too. But progress does seem to have distinctly tapered off.
    - kragen 2y ago
      A bunch? I've only seen three—but that's still a huge improvement over zero pre-Skywater.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    Most PDKs have an NDA, but Skywater is an exception. Also, most PDKs have some software restrictions on their standard cells because they never tested them with the open-source tools, but with difficulty you can use their design rules in software like MAGIC.
- bgnn 2y ago
  Muse semi is an easier path. For Europe there is Europractice which gives access to pretty much any technology. The problem is access to software and fabs. EDA is expensive and nobody will give access to individuals. Same for fabs. They don't want to give access to a lot of people due to IP theft risks. Anyone can be a North Korean hacker. Plus they operate under US export controls which makes the paperwork daunting.
immibis 2y ago
China has one, apparently.
pclmulqdq 2y ago
MOSIS still exists, and Skywater has an MPW service that's easy to order from. If you know the right person, TSMC also has an MPW service (as do most other foundries). Most of the slots on these services go toward high-volume customers and universities, especially at the high-tech PDKs. https://themosisservice.com/ https://themosisservice.com/

ForTheKidz 2y ago

RIP Lynn Conway. Huge loss to the industry. I hadn't realized she had passed until now.

throwaway_3133 2y ago

[dead]

throwaway3572 2y ago

It’s still possible to get a chip made, via MPW, from SkyWater. And you can still use all the open source stuff, like the eFabless pad frame, if you want. But you’ll have to work with SkyWater directly which does require various business agreements to be in place. See more here: https://www.skywatertechnology.com/technology-and-design-enablement/mpw-programs/ https://www.skywatertechnology.com/technology-and-design-ena...

15155 2y ago
> require various business agreements to be in place. I assume they require an NDA for their PDK? Or can projects still be meaningfully open-source with the existing one?
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  SkyWater's 130nm has been used for all (most?) of the Efabless × Google MPW (multi project wafer) runs. That PDK was open sourced as part of that initial effort. https://www.skywatertechnology.com/first-google-sponsored-mpw-shuttle-launched-at-skywater-with-40-open-source-community-submitted-designs/ https://www.skywatertechnology.com/first-google-sponsored-mp... https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk https://github.com/google/skywater-pdk There's a bunch of other PDKs running around now too. But progress does seem to have distinctly tapered off.
  - kragen 2y ago
    A bunch? I've only seen three—but that's still a huge improvement over zero pre-Skywater.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  Most PDKs have an NDA, but Skywater is an exception. Also, most PDKs have some software restrictions on their standard cells because they never tested them with the open-source tools, but with difficulty you can use their design rules in software like MAGIC.
bgnn 2y ago
Muse semi is an easier path. For Europe there is Europractice which gives access to pretty much any technology. The problem is access to software and fabs. EDA is expensive and nobody will give access to individuals. Same for fabs. They don't want to give access to a lot of people due to IP theft risks. Anyone can be a North Korean hacker. Plus they operate under US export controls which makes the paperwork daunting.

immibis 2y ago

China has one, apparently.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

MOSIS still exists, and Skywater has an MPW service that's easy to order from. If you know the right person, TSMC also has an MPW service (as do most other foundries). Most of the slots on these services go toward high-volume customers and universities, especially at the high-tech PDKs. https://themosisservice.com/ https://themosisservice.com/