4 ms·

The right wants everything related to taxes to be as difficult and painful as possible, in the hopes it will encourage the government to lower them.

kccqzy 2y ago
I have heard of this argument many times but it doesn't make sense to me. Most often, the ways to lower taxes come from things like finding new deductions and credits that you didn't know apply to you. This is what the difficult part is. Otherwise, taxes are simple if you just have some W-2 and 1099-INT or 1099-DIV, and claim the standard deduction. Indeed if taxes are too difficult or painful, a reasonable person would demand that the government simplify taxes, and that's not the same as reducing taxes. But then again maybe they are banking on the masses conflating simplifying taxes and reducing taxes.
- jedberg 2y ago
  You know how everyone complains "oh I can't do anything this weekend I have to do my taxes"? They want that pain, so that you bitch and moan about the heavy burden of taxation, and then support the party that claims they want to reduce the heavy burden of taxation. But also, Intuit spends a lot money lobbying.
- acdha 2y ago
  Taxes aren’t hard but people have been encouraged to talk about it like it’s a colonoscopy by Roto-rooter. Someone can have all W-2 income and only take the standard deduction, but thanks to that messaging they’ll act like filing your own taxes is incredibly dangerous with a high chance of ruining you for life (I know someone whose parent worked for the IRS as an auditor and they noted that many people ended up neutral or even getting a refund because an audit for someone who wasn’t trying to cheat would usually find deductions that they hadn’t claimed). That’s not accidental: the rich have been funding anti-tax messaging since the introduction of the income tax, and it’s heavily promoted by the media voices they fund. The tax preparation industry is similarly biased since it’s with so profitable for the median voter to think that they need to pay hundreds of dollars every year to fill out a couple of forms.
  - recursive 2y ago
    The reason I think taxes are hard isn't because of messaging. I might be an idiot, but it's because of an experience I had years ago where I was trying to follow the rules and pay taxes on some contracting income. I screwed something up. I ended up corresponding with the IRS dozens of times. Somehow I had recorded some income that never happened. I think I spent more time writing letters than I spent on the contract project. To this day I'm scared of contacting.
    - EvanAnderson 2y ago
      > ...where I was trying to follow the rules and pay taxes on some contracting income... You're an exception and, yeah, it sucks. For somebody who has W-2 income, maybe a 1099-INT, and takes the standard deduction filing taxes is painless and simple. I've just accepted the $800 - $1,000 cost per year for preparation of my LLC K-1 and personal taxes as part of the cost of being an exception. It sucks, but I just roll it into my rates.
    - acdha 2y ago
      Yeah, I’m not saying that every situation is trivial but the figures I’ve seen have something like 80% of filers using W-2 income so it’s weird when people who don’t have complex property ownership or business arrangements talk like it’s incredibly complicated. Most of us could use Direct File to be just like most other countries in the world, but there’s a now-dominant lobby which tried to block that.
  - araes 2y ago
    Generally agree for most people. Only caveat is for those with mild amounts of savings (not enough to qualify as wealthy). Enough 401k, mild investments over time with disposable income, or transfers from friends / family / inheritance, that the process becomes quite challenging. You make a couple thousand on a decent year in capital gains or dividend distributions, yet end up with rather confusing paperwork piles to deal with at tax time. Finding out it was necessary to note each buy / sell and the holding time individually for the entire year just seemed crazy in the detail necessary. Mild awareness of why the actual wealthy hire accountants and firms with specialized teams and software to deal with those issues. The part that's also not dealt with, at least in terms of those deductions, is that usually they're related to businesses and expenses. The deductions are available, yet often you have to be treating almost your entire life like a business expense every moment. Business cell phone. Business internet. Business supplies. Business ads, website, and marketing. Business travel. Business property depreciation / amortization. Business legal and accounting. Business mileage. Business loan interest. Business meals. A (personal opinion) funny one is "Hire your own children as workers." You can write-off the payment you make to them which reduces your taxes and the income they earn can be tax-free if you pay them less than the standard deduction.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  My friend owned a tax preparation place for awhile. Half her clients could file with the short form. Most of the rest had either dependent care deductions or EIC, that's it. <5% used deductions beyond SALT and mortgage interest. It's a gross business. They charge people for being ignorant and dumb with money (via refund loans) Hell, I have a fairly complex return. It takes me <90 minutes with a $40 software package.
doawoo 2y ago
They want everything to be privatized so they can rake in that sweet, sweet lobbyist money. There's zero reason why taxes, for the majority of citizens, isn't just a postcard you get in the mail and confirm against your own earnings records. It should not cost me hours of my own life and/or dollars of my own money to file my taxes. I don't mind paying them (if they're used for something actually constructive like public infrastructure) but gosh they sure make it hard.
- pstuart 2y ago
  Both parts are true. The goal as a whole: * Eliminate all taxes * Eliminate all regulations * Use the government for financial gain (by the "right people") * Use the government to oppress all "others" (those who are not white christian men) * Crown a king and ensure that crown stays within their select group
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    The first two goals aren't even true, mind you. One of the first things the GOP was looking to do was institute a new tax on workers to pay for a tax cut on businesses and the rich. And they want to cut all regulations for businesses, but keep it illegal for workers to unionize and exert power. The last three points are correct however. Everything they say is double speak, you have to look at what they say and what they do.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
QIYGT 2y ago
The complexity is also what allows loopholes to exist for rich people.

kccqzy 2y ago

I have heard of this argument many times but it doesn't make sense to me. Most often, the ways to lower taxes come from things like finding new deductions and credits that you didn't know apply to you. This is what the difficult part is. Otherwise, taxes are simple if you just have some W-2 and 1099-INT or 1099-DIV, and claim the standard deduction. Indeed if taxes are too difficult or painful, a reasonable person would demand that the government simplify taxes, and that's not the same as reducing taxes. But then again maybe they are banking on the masses conflating simplifying taxes and reducing taxes.

jedberg 2y ago
You know how everyone complains "oh I can't do anything this weekend I have to do my taxes"? They want that pain, so that you bitch and moan about the heavy burden of taxation, and then support the party that claims they want to reduce the heavy burden of taxation. But also, Intuit spends a lot money lobbying.
acdha 2y ago
Taxes aren’t hard but people have been encouraged to talk about it like it’s a colonoscopy by Roto-rooter. Someone can have all W-2 income and only take the standard deduction, but thanks to that messaging they’ll act like filing your own taxes is incredibly dangerous with a high chance of ruining you for life (I know someone whose parent worked for the IRS as an auditor and they noted that many people ended up neutral or even getting a refund because an audit for someone who wasn’t trying to cheat would usually find deductions that they hadn’t claimed). That’s not accidental: the rich have been funding anti-tax messaging since the introduction of the income tax, and it’s heavily promoted by the media voices they fund. The tax preparation industry is similarly biased since it’s with so profitable for the median voter to think that they need to pay hundreds of dollars every year to fill out a couple of forms.
- recursive 2y ago
  The reason I think taxes are hard isn't because of messaging. I might be an idiot, but it's because of an experience I had years ago where I was trying to follow the rules and pay taxes on some contracting income. I screwed something up. I ended up corresponding with the IRS dozens of times. Somehow I had recorded some income that never happened. I think I spent more time writing letters than I spent on the contract project. To this day I'm scared of contacting.
  - EvanAnderson 2y ago
    > ...where I was trying to follow the rules and pay taxes on some contracting income... You're an exception and, yeah, it sucks. For somebody who has W-2 income, maybe a 1099-INT, and takes the standard deduction filing taxes is painless and simple. I've just accepted the $800 - $1,000 cost per year for preparation of my LLC K-1 and personal taxes as part of the cost of being an exception. It sucks, but I just roll it into my rates.
  - acdha 2y ago
    Yeah, I’m not saying that every situation is trivial but the figures I’ve seen have something like 80% of filers using W-2 income so it’s weird when people who don’t have complex property ownership or business arrangements talk like it’s incredibly complicated. Most of us could use Direct File to be just like most other countries in the world, but there’s a now-dominant lobby which tried to block that.
- araes 2y ago
  Generally agree for most people. Only caveat is for those with mild amounts of savings (not enough to qualify as wealthy). Enough 401k, mild investments over time with disposable income, or transfers from friends / family / inheritance, that the process becomes quite challenging. You make a couple thousand on a decent year in capital gains or dividend distributions, yet end up with rather confusing paperwork piles to deal with at tax time. Finding out it was necessary to note each buy / sell and the holding time individually for the entire year just seemed crazy in the detail necessary. Mild awareness of why the actual wealthy hire accountants and firms with specialized teams and software to deal with those issues. The part that's also not dealt with, at least in terms of those deductions, is that usually they're related to businesses and expenses. The deductions are available, yet often you have to be treating almost your entire life like a business expense every moment. Business cell phone. Business internet. Business supplies. Business ads, website, and marketing. Business travel. Business property depreciation / amortization. Business legal and accounting. Business mileage. Business loan interest. Business meals. A (personal opinion) funny one is "Hire your own children as workers." You can write-off the payment you make to them which reduces your taxes and the income they earn can be tax-free if you pay them less than the standard deduction.
Spooky23 2y ago
My friend owned a tax preparation place for awhile. Half her clients could file with the short form. Most of the rest had either dependent care deductions or EIC, that's it. <5% used deductions beyond SALT and mortgage interest. It's a gross business. They charge people for being ignorant and dumb with money (via refund loans) Hell, I have a fairly complex return. It takes me <90 minutes with a $40 software package.

doawoo 2y ago

They want everything to be privatized so they can rake in that sweet, sweet lobbyist money. There's zero reason why taxes, for the majority of citizens, isn't just a postcard you get in the mail and confirm against your own earnings records. It should not cost me hours of my own life and/or dollars of my own money to file my taxes. I don't mind paying them (if they're used for something actually constructive like public infrastructure) but gosh they sure make it hard.

pstuart 2y ago
Both parts are true. The goal as a whole: * Eliminate all taxes * Eliminate all regulations * Use the government for financial gain (by the "right people") * Use the government to oppress all "others" (those who are not white christian men) * Crown a king and ensure that crown stays within their select group
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  The first two goals aren't even true, mind you. One of the first things the GOP was looking to do was institute a new tax on workers to pay for a tax cut on businesses and the rich. And they want to cut all regulations for businesses, but keep it illegal for workers to unionize and exert power. The last three points are correct however. Everything they say is double speak, you have to look at what they say and what they do.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

QIYGT 2y ago

The complexity is also what allows loopholes to exist for rich people.