6 ms·

TIL that in America, if you work on a free tax filing system you are considered by some to be part of the "far left".

by fancyfredbot 2y ago

moomin 2y ago
Heaven forbid if the US catches up with the U.K. in the 1990s.
- AnotherGoodName 2y ago
  Hell any country except the USA. I've lived in both the USA and Australia. In Australia it's been digital for a long time. As in you go to file and the equivalent of all your W2 information is pre-filed by the employer, retirement and investment systems. You're just running through a government provided site to check off any special exemptions and you're done. It's a huge efficiency win. Think of the hours you spent dealing with Turbotax and the like, re-importing information from other systems manually when your employer and bank already added filed that information under your name into the tax system on their side. I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The US tax system is NOT more complex than other countries. It's pretty middle of the road in complexity. Yes other countries are made up of states too. Yes there's a ton of exemptions in other countries. It's yet another example of people taking an absurd "government is always less efficient than private" viewpoint that isn't even founded in any academic sense. It's a line broadcast by very rich people that want to siphon off profit and it's hard to do that when it's tax payer funded.
  - zzgo 2y ago
    > very rich people that want to siphon off profit Tax preparation is a huge industry in the US, they're going to fight tooth and nail to make sure the government doesn't cut into their business.
  - Kamq 2y ago
    > I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The argument I always hear from the right about this is that they worry that making taxes more efficient will allow them (and government action in general) to increase. The right is explicitly committed to reducing that, so it's not in their interest. Same reason I've heard from people on the right about ending withholding. They think that if people had to cut an actual check to the government every year (or quarter) that people would realize how much it's costing them and be more amenable to reducing it.
- ahmedfromtunis 2y ago
  I read somewhere that the convolution of tax returns system is intentional as the right thinks that the federal government should collect as little tax as possible. Making people suffer to file their taxes aims to reduce the federals from levying more taxes without popular opposition. Providing a free, digital service to collect taxes would then be considered a real threat.
  - moomin 2y ago
    Pretty sure it was patio11. :D
purple_ferret 2y ago
But you don't understand. If the government helps you file your taxes, they'll use the service to collect your personal data, so the communists could use it against you at some point in the future. (this is the right wing argument, so to speak)
- chabes 2y ago
  The IRS already files its own version of your taxes. They use their version to check against what you the individual files.
  - timewizard 2y ago
    The IRS has some pretty strict rules about who can access those files and how they can be shared with other agencies. In many ways these rules are unique to the IRS. Precisely because of the issues noted here.
    - hypothesis 2y ago
      IRS had some pretty strict rules. But apparently you just need to replace leadership with an acting toady to override the rules. E.g: https://bsky.app/profile/jacobbogage.bsky.social/post/3ljc2oduenc25 https://bsky.app/profile/jacobbogage.bsky.social/post/3ljc2o...
- phillipcarter 2y ago
  Is it? I think the more common right-wing argument is that you shouldn't have taxes / the IRS is just evil / the whole government apparatus needs to be burned to the ground. (I do not agree with it, it's just what I interpret the arguments to be)
  - purple_ferret 2y ago
    Here's the tweet that prompted Elon's 'deleted' tweet: >18F, the far left government wide computer office that was recently taken over by allies of @elonmusk, is also the same agency that built Elizabeth Warren's "Direct File" tax program. >Direct File puts the government in charge of preparing peoples tax returns for them. https://nitter.poast.org/alx/status/1886415751528972515 https://nitter.poast.org/alx/status/1886415751528972515? Clearly, they think there is something malicious in having the federal government manage this service despite the fact that the result gets submitted....to the federal government anyway
brookst 2y ago
In the US privatization is conservative, so anything that reduces private profiteering on mandatory activities is by definition “far left”.
- smallmancontrov 2y ago
  That, but also the current system allows rich peoples' accountants to exercise an enormous amount of creativity when determining what their taxes should be, their imagination constrained only by the vague threat of possible audit from a gutted agency limited to limp-wristed punishments. Automation threatens this kleptocratic "freedom." (The creativity has to do with asset games of fixed overhead that only amortizes on sizable fortunes. Poor people had better file their taxes correctly. If you work for a wage, you are poor for the purposes of this discussion.)
Ancapistani 2y ago
[flagged]
- multjoy 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - nsxwolf 2y ago
    What’s the appropriate number of employees for the federal government?
    - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
      Government changes over time, and the need for workforce changes with it. The number of employees a government needs is a function of what the government does and provides. Anything else would be artificial constraint, or working backwards from assumption.
    - cheema33 2y ago
      > What’s the appropriate number of employees for the federal government? I don't think there is one fixed number. What is the point you are trying to make?
    - Avshalom 2y ago
      300 million, bare minimum.
    - KerrAvon 2y ago
      This is a non-sequitur. The raw numbers are irrelevant. What are those employees doing? In abstract, I support a smaller government. In practice, Chesterton’s Fence is an important principle to remember. For example, the TSA is largely security theater. It would be a real win and legitimate cost savings (unemployment numbers aside) to dismantle the TSA and go back to metal detectors and simpler X-ray machines run by private companies in airports. On the other hand, getting rid of USAID diminishes America’s stature in the world. Where do you think our power comes from? It’s not solely due to our nuclear arsenal. These people are destroying the US government’s capabilities and influence for bizarre ideological reasons that are largely grounded in equally bizarre fictional views of the world. It’s going to be _more_ costly, devastatingly so, to US citizens both financially and otherwise in the short and long term. They could have reduced the size of the government strategically and they could even have done it using this same illegal DOGE technique, but it would have required care and thought, grounded in actual reality.
maelito 2y ago
Meanwhile, the French DINUM (direction of digital inside the French government) and BetaGouv (kind of our 18F) organize their "Rules as code" event in 3 weeks. Our tax filling is free for decades, but lots of things can be made better. https://www.numerique.gouv.fr/agenda/rules-as-code-rencontre-portant-sur-lavenir-de-la-gouvernance-et-des-services-numeriques https://www.numerique.gouv.fr/agenda/rules-as-code-rencontre...

TIL that in America, if you work on a free tax filing system you are considered by some to be part of the "far left".

moomin 2y ago

Heaven forbid if the US catches up with the U.K. in the 1990s.

AnotherGoodName 2y ago
Hell any country except the USA. I've lived in both the USA and Australia. In Australia it's been digital for a long time. As in you go to file and the equivalent of all your W2 information is pre-filed by the employer, retirement and investment systems. You're just running through a government provided site to check off any special exemptions and you're done. It's a huge efficiency win. Think of the hours you spent dealing with Turbotax and the like, re-importing information from other systems manually when your employer and bank already added filed that information under your name into the tax system on their side. I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The US tax system is NOT more complex than other countries. It's pretty middle of the road in complexity. Yes other countries are made up of states too. Yes there's a ton of exemptions in other countries. It's yet another example of people taking an absurd "government is always less efficient than private" viewpoint that isn't even founded in any academic sense. It's a line broadcast by very rich people that want to siphon off profit and it's hard to do that when it's tax payer funded.
- zzgo 2y ago
  > very rich people that want to siphon off profit Tax preparation is a huge industry in the US, they're going to fight tooth and nail to make sure the government doesn't cut into their business.
- Kamq 2y ago
  > I hear outright wrong arguments for why the USA has not moved to a modern filing system. The argument I always hear from the right about this is that they worry that making taxes more efficient will allow them (and government action in general) to increase. The right is explicitly committed to reducing that, so it's not in their interest. Same reason I've heard from people on the right about ending withholding. They think that if people had to cut an actual check to the government every year (or quarter) that people would realize how much it's costing them and be more amenable to reducing it.
ahmedfromtunis 2y ago
I read somewhere that the convolution of tax returns system is intentional as the right thinks that the federal government should collect as little tax as possible. Making people suffer to file their taxes aims to reduce the federals from levying more taxes without popular opposition. Providing a free, digital service to collect taxes would then be considered a real threat.
- moomin 2y ago
  Pretty sure it was patio11. :D

purple_ferret 2y ago

But you don't understand. If the government helps you file your taxes, they'll use the service to collect your personal data, so the communists could use it against you at some point in the future. (this is the right wing argument, so to speak)

chabes 2y ago
The IRS already files its own version of your taxes. They use their version to check against what you the individual files.
- timewizard 2y ago
  The IRS has some pretty strict rules about who can access those files and how they can be shared with other agencies. In many ways these rules are unique to the IRS. Precisely because of the issues noted here.
  - hypothesis 2y ago
    IRS had some pretty strict rules. But apparently you just need to replace leadership with an acting toady to override the rules. E.g: https://bsky.app/profile/jacobbogage.bsky.social/post/3ljc2oduenc25 https://bsky.app/profile/jacobbogage.bsky.social/post/3ljc2o...
phillipcarter 2y ago
Is it? I think the more common right-wing argument is that you shouldn't have taxes / the IRS is just evil / the whole government apparatus needs to be burned to the ground. (I do not agree with it, it's just what I interpret the arguments to be)
- purple_ferret 2y ago
  Here's the tweet that prompted Elon's 'deleted' tweet: >18F, the far left government wide computer office that was recently taken over by allies of @elonmusk, is also the same agency that built Elizabeth Warren's "Direct File" tax program. >Direct File puts the government in charge of preparing peoples tax returns for them. https://nitter.poast.org/alx/status/1886415751528972515 https://nitter.poast.org/alx/status/1886415751528972515? Clearly, they think there is something malicious in having the federal government manage this service despite the fact that the result gets submitted....to the federal government anyway

brookst 2y ago

In the US privatization is conservative, so anything that reduces private profiteering on mandatory activities is by definition “far left”.

smallmancontrov 2y ago
That, but also the current system allows rich peoples' accountants to exercise an enormous amount of creativity when determining what their taxes should be, their imagination constrained only by the vague threat of possible audit from a gutted agency limited to limp-wristed punishments. Automation threatens this kleptocratic "freedom." (The creativity has to do with asset games of fixed overhead that only amortizes on sizable fortunes. Poor people had better file their taxes correctly. If you work for a wage, you are poor for the purposes of this discussion.)

Ancapistani 2y ago

[flagged]

multjoy 2y ago
[flagged]
- nsxwolf 2y ago
  What’s the appropriate number of employees for the federal government?
  - TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
    Government changes over time, and the need for workforce changes with it. The number of employees a government needs is a function of what the government does and provides. Anything else would be artificial constraint, or working backwards from assumption.
  - cheema33 2y ago
    > What’s the appropriate number of employees for the federal government? I don't think there is one fixed number. What is the point you are trying to make?
  - Avshalom 2y ago
    300 million, bare minimum.
  - KerrAvon 2y ago
    This is a non-sequitur. The raw numbers are irrelevant. What are those employees doing? In abstract, I support a smaller government. In practice, Chesterton’s Fence is an important principle to remember. For example, the TSA is largely security theater. It would be a real win and legitimate cost savings (unemployment numbers aside) to dismantle the TSA and go back to metal detectors and simpler X-ray machines run by private companies in airports. On the other hand, getting rid of USAID diminishes America’s stature in the world. Where do you think our power comes from? It’s not solely due to our nuclear arsenal. These people are destroying the US government’s capabilities and influence for bizarre ideological reasons that are largely grounded in equally bizarre fictional views of the world. It’s going to be _more_ costly, devastatingly so, to US citizens both financially and otherwise in the short and long term. They could have reduced the size of the government strategically and they could even have done it using this same illegal DOGE technique, but it would have required care and thought, grounded in actual reality.

maelito 2y ago

Meanwhile, the French DINUM (direction of digital inside the French government) and BetaGouv (kind of our 18F) organize their "Rules as code" event in 3 weeks. Our tax filling is free for decades, but lots of things can be made better. https://www.numerique.gouv.fr/agenda/rules-as-code-rencontre-portant-sur-lavenir-de-la-gouvernance-et-des-services-numeriques https://www.numerique.gouv.fr/agenda/rules-as-code-rencontre...