7 ms·

This whole unhealthy obsession with form over substance (music) really is peak 21th century materialism. Sony's and Philips' engineers must be turning in their

This whole unhealthy obsession with form over substance (music) really is peak 21th century materialism. Sony's and Philips' engineers must be turning in their graves. Disregarding the hipster crowd, so many of these "fiddlers" also have such a laughably mundane and insipid taste clashing strongly with their proffered love for music that an outside viewer can't help but raise an eyebrow; I mean, when your musical world is made of Steely Dan, Diana Krall, Neil Young, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, etc... It's just the man equivalent of collecting porcelain figurines, but with an ad hoc rationalization (it really sounds better!) to protect the ego. Related to Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

dylan604 2y ago
People easily overlook the most important part to me of playing vinyl, and get distracted by the "it sounds better" conversation. To me, it is the physicalness of holding the vinyl, watching/reading the grooves, setting the needle, lifting the needle, rinse/repeat for each track you want to listen (assuming using singles). There's much more satisfaction when you're actively doing things to keep the music playing (even if not a DJing) rather than clicking some infinite stream where you just tune out of even paying attention to the music. Playing vinyl forces your attention. That's when you start to become a real music nerd type by learning which cut of the release a song was on, which side of the vinyl, etc. That might not be what most people care about, and that's fine. They have infinite streaming available for those that just need background noise. But to write vinyl off as a gear acquisition syndrome just screams to me someone doesn't really get it and wants to find a way to mock someone else
- sambapa 2y ago
  That sounds too easy, real music nerd types carve their own vinyls at home. Realer music nerds build machines that carve vinyls. Realerer music nerds work in mines that supply metal (no pun intended) for those machine parts etc. And I'm just a wanker with Spotify and rate your music that accelerated my taste and education in music 1000x times.
- rectang 2y ago
  Album art for 12-inch LPs is fabulous. CD packaging with jewel cases was a major step down in experience because of size and also because of the inconvenience of getting the booklets out of the case; good CD packaging experiences were exceedingly rare. Art for streaming is a different medium altogether, as it is behind a screen but potentially dynamic; it can achieve new things, but can't replicate the LP experience any more than photographs can reproduce sculptures.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    The Black Crowes Southern Harmony and Musical Companion is the size of a jewel case, but cardboard like an LP cover, and folds out to reveal an extra six segments as well as front and back covers. (Five have pictures, the other one holds the CD.) So that's a good effort, but fundamentally LPs are a more satisfying size for looking at.
- BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
  Those are details not improving the music itself; even if cool auxiliary aspects, sometimes. You can listen to full albums intently even when using a digital system. In fact, do you truly care if you have to be physically constrained into doing so? I'll sound very smug, but so be it: this is a trap very easy to fall in. Are you a "proper" christian if you only are because you fear hell? Do you care about software freedom if you had to be spoonfed baby duck software that looks and feels just like Windows to switch?
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Nothing I said implied improving the music, so I have no idea why you're trying to make the connection. The point I was making is that vinyl is about the medium. The physical nature of constantly changing the record means you're more involved. I specifically said that claiming it to be a "better sound" is not what I like about vinyl. So to be very smug, your second graph is absolutely pointless since you've missed the point of the comment you replied
    - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
      No, I didn't miss anything. If you need to be forced by a physical routine to be "involved", do you truly care about music? Why?
cjaackie 2y ago
Sorry there’s nuance missing here, I might personally not have any records, but I understand how some people must enjoy it and I can’t judge them. This reads more like ‘not for me, not for thee’ syndrome.
- 6stringmerc 2y ago
  Fair point and maybe I can contribute, as I get the hostility in the tone. It’s in the inherent contradiction of the justification of the pursuit, from a music appreciation standpoint. Vinyl does not sound better, and many of the legacy artists mentioned didn’t record great quality (sounding) material in the modern era. It’s most definitely a “splurge” of wastefulness under a decidedly erroneous claim.
  - cjaackie 2y ago
    Yes I see what you mean, with hobbies sometimes better costs is equal to better quality (probably not in a linear sense). Records are not that, but ig there’s other examples like old cars that fit the same profile. Really the root question might be, what is better quality? There’s definitely a quality of experience with physical media that there isn’t an analog to in the digital world. I’m sure there are other examples on both sides.
  - globnomulous 2y ago
    > Vinyl does not sound better Have you listened to vinyl on a good system? I have trouble believing anybody who says this has ever listened to a decent record on a decent stereo. Not all vinyl sounds better in my system. Some really is crap. But when I directly compare, and all other things are equal (or seem to be), vinyl normally sounds better than digital. This is more often true of more recent records, too, though some of Deutsche Grammophone's Archive Production records from even the 50s sound astonishingly good. I understand that objectively vinyl doesn't measure as well as CD, but I'll be damned if it doesn't sound better. My partner thinks it does, too, and she has no patience for audiophile nonsense.
    - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
I'd say the whole Baroque movement in the 17th century was form over substance too but not necessarily linked to our definition of materialism. At least they knew how to play instruments back then... I now see that I didn't understood your comment. Yeah, the vinyl form was interesting back then (because it was cheap) but it sounds like shit to me now. But you see this everywhere a company sees a trend and exploit it: anime figures, nostalgia, ... You can't do anything about it anyway, I gave up on that a long time ago. I draw the line where the whole music itself is disconnected from what you are trying to achieve (treating it as fast food, buying manga in Japanese without being able to read Japanese, any kind of collecting that you don't have the skills to experience...) One last thing though. You can have better music than all the CDs in the world if you are looking for a private or concert experience. It all depends on what you seek. Woodstock guys thought they would change the world (and they did in their own way), and the Beatles got their own spiritual/mystical experience in India (which George Harrison used to add the sitar in some songs).
tabony 2y ago
You’re way overthinking it. I go to a show. There’s maybe 50 people in a dark, dingy room. I want to support the band so I buy a shirt and a record from the merch table. Sometimes I’m right by the record store so I stop and browse. I see an LP for an album I like, either used or new. I buy it. Now I have a stack of records. I go home and play records. I still use Spotify.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  I never experienced that but some people do enjoy it, and it's fine as long as it's not a temporary obsession (but that's still my debatable opinion). I remember my aunt saying that she went to a Santana concert in the 70s. She only remembered that "there was a lot of smoke in the room." Did it change her forever? Maybe not, only she knows. But even single experiences can have long-lasting effects that, I'm sure, we'll never be capable of sharing fully.
globnomulous 2y ago
I was about to criticize your comment for unnecessary mean-spiritedness, but then I remembered that I don't have the moral high ground. I once stayed with wealthy tech CEO whose had a very expensive MacIntosh-based stereo, plus some rather expensive looking speakers. His musical library? Grateful Dead, Chicago, Neil Young. The guy gets the enjoy what he enjoys. More power to him. I just can't imagine spending so much for, musically, so very, very little.
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  The Dead, at least, were a band that absolutely pushed the limits of sound engineering in concerts as well as encouraging incredibly elaborate concert recording setups. The wall of sound, and the entire culture of high quality live recordings by 3rd parties is a huge part of their popularity. Why wouldn’t you want to listen to them on a nice system?
  - globnomulous 2y ago
    That's a good point. I withdraw my criticism and admit my error. > Why wouldn’t you want to listen to them on a nice system? They just aren't my cup of tea.
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      Gotcha. What it comes down to is that for a lot of people, operating and owning certain equipment is what gives them joy. You see this in a lot, maybe all, of hobbies and pleasure. It’s like the guy who spends $1k on a 3d printer to make trinkets that you can buy at the dollar store.

dylan604 2y ago

People easily overlook the most important part to me of playing vinyl, and get distracted by the "it sounds better" conversation. To me, it is the physicalness of holding the vinyl, watching/reading the grooves, setting the needle, lifting the needle, rinse/repeat for each track you want to listen (assuming using singles). There's much more satisfaction when you're actively doing things to keep the music playing (even if not a DJing) rather than clicking some infinite stream where you just tune out of even paying attention to the music. Playing vinyl forces your attention. That's when you start to become a real music nerd type by learning which cut of the release a song was on, which side of the vinyl, etc. That might not be what most people care about, and that's fine. They have infinite streaming available for those that just need background noise. But to write vinyl off as a gear acquisition syndrome just screams to me someone doesn't really get it and wants to find a way to mock someone else

sambapa 2y ago
That sounds too easy, real music nerd types carve their own vinyls at home. Realer music nerds build machines that carve vinyls. Realerer music nerds work in mines that supply metal (no pun intended) for those machine parts etc. And I'm just a wanker with Spotify and rate your music that accelerated my taste and education in music 1000x times.
rectang 2y ago
Album art for 12-inch LPs is fabulous. CD packaging with jewel cases was a major step down in experience because of size and also because of the inconvenience of getting the booklets out of the case; good CD packaging experiences were exceedingly rare. Art for streaming is a different medium altogether, as it is behind a screen but potentially dynamic; it can achieve new things, but can't replicate the LP experience any more than photographs can reproduce sculptures.
- card_zero 2y ago
  The Black Crowes Southern Harmony and Musical Companion is the size of a jewel case, but cardboard like an LP cover, and folds out to reveal an extra six segments as well as front and back covers. (Five have pictures, the other one holds the CD.) So that's a good effort, but fundamentally LPs are a more satisfying size for looking at.
BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
Those are details not improving the music itself; even if cool auxiliary aspects, sometimes. You can listen to full albums intently even when using a digital system. In fact, do you truly care if you have to be physically constrained into doing so? I'll sound very smug, but so be it: this is a trap very easy to fall in. Are you a "proper" christian if you only are because you fear hell? Do you care about software freedom if you had to be spoonfed baby duck software that looks and feels just like Windows to switch?
- dylan604 2y ago
  Nothing I said implied improving the music, so I have no idea why you're trying to make the connection. The point I was making is that vinyl is about the medium. The physical nature of constantly changing the record means you're more involved. I specifically said that claiming it to be a "better sound" is not what I like about vinyl. So to be very smug, your second graph is absolutely pointless since you've missed the point of the comment you replied
  - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
    No, I didn't miss anything. If you need to be forced by a physical routine to be "involved", do you truly care about music? Why?

cjaackie 2y ago

Sorry there’s nuance missing here, I might personally not have any records, but I understand how some people must enjoy it and I can’t judge them. This reads more like ‘not for me, not for thee’ syndrome.

6stringmerc 2y ago
Fair point and maybe I can contribute, as I get the hostility in the tone. It’s in the inherent contradiction of the justification of the pursuit, from a music appreciation standpoint. Vinyl does not sound better, and many of the legacy artists mentioned didn’t record great quality (sounding) material in the modern era. It’s most definitely a “splurge” of wastefulness under a decidedly erroneous claim.
- cjaackie 2y ago
  Yes I see what you mean, with hobbies sometimes better costs is equal to better quality (probably not in a linear sense). Records are not that, but ig there’s other examples like old cars that fit the same profile. Really the root question might be, what is better quality? There’s definitely a quality of experience with physical media that there isn’t an analog to in the digital world. I’m sure there are other examples on both sides.
- globnomulous 2y ago
  > Vinyl does not sound better Have you listened to vinyl on a good system? I have trouble believing anybody who says this has ever listened to a decent record on a decent stereo. Not all vinyl sounds better in my system. Some really is crap. But when I directly compare, and all other things are equal (or seem to be), vinyl normally sounds better than digital. This is more often true of more recent records, too, though some of Deutsche Grammophone's Archive Production records from even the 50s sound astonishingly good. I understand that objectively vinyl doesn't measure as well as CD, but I'll be damned if it doesn't sound better. My partner thinks it does, too, and she has no patience for audiophile nonsense.
  - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago

I'd say the whole Baroque movement in the 17th century was form over substance too but not necessarily linked to our definition of materialism. At least they knew how to play instruments back then... I now see that I didn't understood your comment. Yeah, the vinyl form was interesting back then (because it was cheap) but it sounds like shit to me now. But you see this everywhere a company sees a trend and exploit it: anime figures, nostalgia, ... You can't do anything about it anyway, I gave up on that a long time ago. I draw the line where the whole music itself is disconnected from what you are trying to achieve (treating it as fast food, buying manga in Japanese without being able to read Japanese, any kind of collecting that you don't have the skills to experience...) One last thing though. You can have better music than all the CDs in the world if you are looking for a private or concert experience. It all depends on what you seek. Woodstock guys thought they would change the world (and they did in their own way), and the Beatles got their own spiritual/mystical experience in India (which George Harrison used to add the sitar in some songs).

tabony 2y ago

You’re way overthinking it. I go to a show. There’s maybe 50 people in a dark, dingy room. I want to support the band so I buy a shirt and a record from the merch table. Sometimes I’m right by the record store so I stop and browse. I see an LP for an album I like, either used or new. I buy it. Now I have a stack of records. I go home and play records. I still use Spotify.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
I never experienced that but some people do enjoy it, and it's fine as long as it's not a temporary obsession (but that's still my debatable opinion). I remember my aunt saying that she went to a Santana concert in the 70s. She only remembered that "there was a lot of smoke in the room." Did it change her forever? Maybe not, only she knows. But even single experiences can have long-lasting effects that, I'm sure, we'll never be capable of sharing fully.

globnomulous 2y ago

I was about to criticize your comment for unnecessary mean-spiritedness, but then I remembered that I don't have the moral high ground. I once stayed with wealthy tech CEO whose had a very expensive MacIntosh-based stereo, plus some rather expensive looking speakers. His musical library? Grateful Dead, Chicago, Neil Young. The guy gets the enjoy what he enjoys. More power to him. I just can't imagine spending so much for, musically, so very, very little.

dghlsakjg 2y ago
The Dead, at least, were a band that absolutely pushed the limits of sound engineering in concerts as well as encouraging incredibly elaborate concert recording setups. The wall of sound, and the entire culture of high quality live recordings by 3rd parties is a huge part of their popularity. Why wouldn’t you want to listen to them on a nice system?
- globnomulous 2y ago
  That's a good point. I withdraw my criticism and admit my error. > Why wouldn’t you want to listen to them on a nice system? They just aren't my cup of tea.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    Gotcha. What it comes down to is that for a lot of people, operating and owning certain equipment is what gives them joy. You see this in a lot, maybe all, of hobbies and pleasure. It’s like the guy who spends $1k on a 3d printer to make trinkets that you can buy at the dollar store.