3 ms·

What do you mean they don't have access? Maybe they kept copy of the technical documents and just keep building the machine and send them to China and not send

by mrtksn 2y ago

What do you mean they don't have access? Maybe they kept copy of the technical documents and just keep building the machine and send them to China and not send them to USA?

alephnerd 2y ago
ASML is a HOLDING company. National Labs are part of the US Defense apparatus and have massive compliance and firewalling requirements, and constant audits. Any attempt by ASML Holdings to exfiltrate data and IP from Cymer LLC (a DoE contractor) opens ASML leadership to criminal charges, and makes them toxic in any deal. It might not matter to you, but it absolutely puts the Dutch economy at risk. And anyhow, all the manufacturing is done in San Diego and Livermore anyhow.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  These things are important only at peacetime. Also, some parts being made in USA only means that they need to find a new supplier and if that doesn't exist then can help someone to figure it out. USA is an important partner but nothing is more important than the wellbeing of the immediate neighboring countries because USA is actually a distant 5th trading partner for the Dutch with less than %5 of the trade, it is as about as important as Italy. You can't have prosperous Netherlands with struggling Europe.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    The manufacturing for the EUV portions of EUV Lithography machines built and sold by ASML is done entirely in America (SoCal area) by an autonomous subsidiary (Cymer) that is a partnership with a National Lab. As a result, the Dutch portion has limited access to the intricacies. I don't know why this isn't getting into your head.
- gtirloni 2y ago
  > And anyhow, all the manufacturing is done in San Diego and Livermore anyhow Could you define "all"? From your comment it seems all stories about ASML having a quasi-monopoly in lithography machines are nonsense. So it's the US holding the chip cards? That makes the China vs Taiwan debacle even less important to the US, since there's nothing to worry about.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > ASML having a quasi-monopoly in lithography machines are nonsense They absolutely do, and it's becuase the US chose to give it to ASML Holdings instead of Nikon due to antitrust concerns in the 2000s-early 2010s. > Could you define "all"? Lithography machines are complex and filled with several parts. The primary part that allows you to do light based lithography is the Light Source - a very advanced form of Laser. This is what Cymer manufactures and developed in conjunction with Lawrence Livermore National Labs. But technology in isolation is useless - it needs to be capitalized in order to be built and utilized. This is why LLNL brought ASML in as a private sector partner for Cymer. > That makes the China vs Taiwan debacle even less important to the US The "Taiwan Chips" aspect was always nonsense that was literally lobbied by Intel in 2019 to force TSMC to burn $20B building a factory in Arizona while giving Intel some breathing room to build a Foundary IDM. Also, the intermediate parts for fabrication are largely manufactured in Japan and South Korea. There are a number of vendors in Taiwan now, but there is an ecosystem in the other two as well. > less important to the US, since there's nothing to worry about. Wrong. Taiwan is part of the first island chain. Without Taiwan, much of the US's Pacific seaboard becomes very difficult to defend, and leaves us open to a Pearl Harbor 2.0. Even in 20th century, the only time the US ever lost land was to the Japanese when they invaded American Phillipines, portions of Alaska, and planned to invade Hawaii. This is why you see horrible unseriousness about Ukraine by US admins. Ukraine is bad, but Taiwan is existential for the US, and why just about every US admin is much more worried about China compared to Russia. No European nation other than France has the capacity to help us in the Pacific, so they may as well help load balance/burden share in Europe and MENA. It will make both North America and our European allies stronger.

by mrtksn 2y ago

What do you mean they don't have access? Maybe they kept copy of the technical documents and just keep building the machine and send them to China and not send them to USA?

alephnerd 2y ago

ASML is a HOLDING company. National Labs are part of the US Defense apparatus and have massive compliance and firewalling requirements, and constant audits. Any attempt by ASML Holdings to exfiltrate data and IP from Cymer LLC (a DoE contractor) opens ASML leadership to criminal charges, and makes them toxic in any deal. It might not matter to you, but it absolutely puts the Dutch economy at risk. And anyhow, all the manufacturing is done in San Diego and Livermore anyhow.

mrtksn 2y ago
These things are important only at peacetime. Also, some parts being made in USA only means that they need to find a new supplier and if that doesn't exist then can help someone to figure it out. USA is an important partner but nothing is more important than the wellbeing of the immediate neighboring countries because USA is actually a distant 5th trading partner for the Dutch with less than %5 of the trade, it is as about as important as Italy. You can't have prosperous Netherlands with struggling Europe.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  The manufacturing for the EUV portions of EUV Lithography machines built and sold by ASML is done entirely in America (SoCal area) by an autonomous subsidiary (Cymer) that is a partnership with a National Lab. As a result, the Dutch portion has limited access to the intricacies. I don't know why this isn't getting into your head.
gtirloni 2y ago
> And anyhow, all the manufacturing is done in San Diego and Livermore anyhow Could you define "all"? From your comment it seems all stories about ASML having a quasi-monopoly in lithography machines are nonsense. So it's the US holding the chip cards? That makes the China vs Taiwan debacle even less important to the US, since there's nothing to worry about.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > ASML having a quasi-monopoly in lithography machines are nonsense They absolutely do, and it's becuase the US chose to give it to ASML Holdings instead of Nikon due to antitrust concerns in the 2000s-early 2010s. > Could you define "all"? Lithography machines are complex and filled with several parts. The primary part that allows you to do light based lithography is the Light Source - a very advanced form of Laser. This is what Cymer manufactures and developed in conjunction with Lawrence Livermore National Labs. But technology in isolation is useless - it needs to be capitalized in order to be built and utilized. This is why LLNL brought ASML in as a private sector partner for Cymer. > That makes the China vs Taiwan debacle even less important to the US The "Taiwan Chips" aspect was always nonsense that was literally lobbied by Intel in 2019 to force TSMC to burn $20B building a factory in Arizona while giving Intel some breathing room to build a Foundary IDM. Also, the intermediate parts for fabrication are largely manufactured in Japan and South Korea. There are a number of vendors in Taiwan now, but there is an ecosystem in the other two as well. > less important to the US, since there's nothing to worry about. Wrong. Taiwan is part of the first island chain. Without Taiwan, much of the US's Pacific seaboard becomes very difficult to defend, and leaves us open to a Pearl Harbor 2.0. Even in 20th century, the only time the US ever lost land was to the Japanese when they invaded American Phillipines, portions of Alaska, and planned to invade Hawaii. This is why you see horrible unseriousness about Ukraine by US admins. Ukraine is bad, but Taiwan is existential for the US, and why just about every US admin is much more worried about China compared to Russia. No European nation other than France has the capacity to help us in the Pacific, so they may as well help load balance/burden share in Europe and MENA. It will make both North America and our European allies stronger.