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A referendum carried out by an occupying force means nothing. That's a fact. If Russia were serious about self-determination of the Dombas and Crimea regions,

A referendum carried out by an occupying force means nothing. That's a fact. If Russia were serious about self-determination of the Dombas and Crimea regions, they'd have first proposed a referendum audited by international observers, and pressured Ukraine diplomatically to accept. Instead, Russia chose to invade. They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. Every death from the Ukraine war is entirely on Russia's head.

mathfailure 2y ago
That's not a fact, that's an opinion. Because the sentence isn't detailed enough: means nothing to whom? If the vote results are this definitive, where the majority is so overwhelming that it simply can't be forged - what is even the point of having a referendum? It was merely a formality: no one disputes the results, after all. The international independent observers were invited to said referendum, but they decided not to come. And it is obvious why: because they aren't really that independent after all. Personally I realized that if you dig deep enough you realize that all those documents, formalities, treaties and agreements - they don't mean much, as we aren't some tenant entities with an overlord above us who could judge us in case of disputes. International (I don't even know what's the right word here) situation happens mostly as a consequence of who's more powerful and who controls what. U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. Why can't Russia do just the same? > They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. The comic part of the situation is that Ukraine can stop it any time they choose as well. But neither side wants to stop it THAT way. Each side wants to win in this situation. If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help. Zelensky didn't bow low enough and now gets what he deserves.
- weavejester 2y ago
  > That's not a fact, that's an opinion. It's a fact. A free and fair referendum cannot be held by an occupying force, because their very presence biases the results. This is true even if the occupiers are honorable. It goes double for a leader like Putin, who imprisons and assassinates his political opponents. > U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. > > Why can't Russia do just the same? In both cases it's wrong. But if you want the realpolitik answer, it's because the US has a competent military. > If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help. David won against Goliath, remember? That's the whole point of the parable. At least find a metaphor that supports your argument. Besides, isn't finding support exactly what Zelensky's been doing all this time? The US may be withdrawing its support, but European support is increasing. And in terms of population, economy, and military spending, Europe is a lot bigger than Russia. You say Ukraine should know their fights, but doesn't that apply more to Russia? They expected the war to be over in 3 days, and it's been 3 years. Putin vastly overestimated the strength of his own army, and underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up. How much longer can Russia's reserves actually last? Those steadily rising Russian interest rates indicate an economy that's edging ever closer to collapse.
  - imcritic 2y ago
    > It's a fact. No, facts can't contain undefined properties like "free and fair". Who should decide whether a referendum is free and fair? No one. It's basically the question of whether people of that region agree or disagree with the referendum enough as to defend their position with force. As you can see - Crimeans are quite content they are part of Russia and not in ruins under a nazi regime. (That's also an opinion, the fact is that there's just no unrest.) > But if you want the realpolitik answer, it's because the US has a competent military. If Russia's military is so incompetent - Zelensky is going to win ~ soon, let's wait. > David won against Goliath, remember? That's the whole point of the parable. At least find a metaphor that supports your argument. You missed the point: Zelensky sees himself as a David from the metaphor, but reality is that he is a clown, not a leader, not even a politician, but rather a parody to one. > And in terms of population, economy, and military spending, Europe is a lot bigger than Russia. Yep. But Russia is at war and Europe is only cuckoldily fighting right now. Let Europe get into full blown war if they want to participate so much. > You say Ukraine should know their fights, but doesn't that apply more to Russia? They expected the war to be over in 3 days, and it's been 3 years. Putin vastly overestimated the strength of his own army, and underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up. They got Ukraine military in the chokehold at the start of the operation, then Zelensky agreed to proceed with diplomacy and Russia pulled its forces back. But then Ukraine got some spoken assurances from US and EU of receiving money and military help from them. And then Russia had to start liberation from the border again. It goes quite slow for a few reasons: first of all, Russia isn't in a hurry: it gets really valuable first hand experience in modern warfare, the kind that almost none gets (even US hasn't fought a real war (without bombarding the area to the smithereens first) for quite a long time). Another reason is that Russia successfully mobilized its economy for war time. Just in case it has to go into a bigger war now/later, but it needs time to produce more new weaponry. Another reason for going slow is that Russia isn't really fighting a genocidal war, where everyone on the other side is seen as an enemy, they just demilitarize Ukraine, fighting just its soldiers, trying not to harm civilians, and that's not so simple, actually.

mathfailure 2y ago

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. Because the sentence isn't detailed enough: means nothing to whom? If the vote results are this definitive, where the majority is so overwhelming that it simply can't be forged - what is even the point of having a referendum? It was merely a formality: no one disputes the results, after all. The international independent observers were invited to said referendum, but they decided not to come. And it is obvious why: because they aren't really that independent after all. Personally I realized that if you dig deep enough you realize that all those documents, formalities, treaties and agreements - they don't mean much, as we aren't some tenant entities with an overlord above us who could judge us in case of disputes. International (I don't even know what's the right word here) situation happens mostly as a consequence of who's more powerful and who controls what. U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. Why can't Russia do just the same? > They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. The comic part of the situation is that Ukraine can stop it any time they choose as well. But neither side wants to stop it THAT way. Each side wants to win in this situation. If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help. Zelensky didn't bow low enough and now gets what he deserves.

weavejester 2y ago
> That's not a fact, that's an opinion. It's a fact. A free and fair referendum cannot be held by an occupying force, because their very presence biases the results. This is true even if the occupiers are honorable. It goes double for a leader like Putin, who imprisons and assassinates his political opponents. > U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. > > Why can't Russia do just the same? In both cases it's wrong. But if you want the realpolitik answer, it's because the US has a competent military. > If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help. David won against Goliath, remember? That's the whole point of the parable. At least find a metaphor that supports your argument. Besides, isn't finding support exactly what Zelensky's been doing all this time? The US may be withdrawing its support, but European support is increasing. And in terms of population, economy, and military spending, Europe is a lot bigger than Russia. You say Ukraine should know their fights, but doesn't that apply more to Russia? They expected the war to be over in 3 days, and it's been 3 years. Putin vastly overestimated the strength of his own army, and underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up. How much longer can Russia's reserves actually last? Those steadily rising Russian interest rates indicate an economy that's edging ever closer to collapse.
- imcritic 2y ago
  > It's a fact. No, facts can't contain undefined properties like "free and fair". Who should decide whether a referendum is free and fair? No one. It's basically the question of whether people of that region agree or disagree with the referendum enough as to defend their position with force. As you can see - Crimeans are quite content they are part of Russia and not in ruins under a nazi regime. (That's also an opinion, the fact is that there's just no unrest.) > But if you want the realpolitik answer, it's because the US has a competent military. If Russia's military is so incompetent - Zelensky is going to win ~ soon, let's wait. > David won against Goliath, remember? That's the whole point of the parable. At least find a metaphor that supports your argument. You missed the point: Zelensky sees himself as a David from the metaphor, but reality is that he is a clown, not a leader, not even a politician, but rather a parody to one. > And in terms of population, economy, and military spending, Europe is a lot bigger than Russia. Yep. But Russia is at war and Europe is only cuckoldily fighting right now. Let Europe get into full blown war if they want to participate so much. > You say Ukraine should know their fights, but doesn't that apply more to Russia? They expected the war to be over in 3 days, and it's been 3 years. Putin vastly overestimated the strength of his own army, and underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up. They got Ukraine military in the chokehold at the start of the operation, then Zelensky agreed to proceed with diplomacy and Russia pulled its forces back. But then Ukraine got some spoken assurances from US and EU of receiving money and military help from them. And then Russia had to start liberation from the border again. It goes quite slow for a few reasons: first of all, Russia isn't in a hurry: it gets really valuable first hand experience in modern warfare, the kind that almost none gets (even US hasn't fought a real war (without bombarding the area to the smithereens first) for quite a long time). Another reason is that Russia successfully mobilized its economy for war time. Just in case it has to go into a bigger war now/later, but it needs time to produce more new weaponry. Another reason for going slow is that Russia isn't really fighting a genocidal war, where everyone on the other side is seen as an enemy, they just demilitarize Ukraine, fighting just its soldiers, trying not to harm civilians, and that's not so simple, actually.