5 ms·

> I am ashamed of the US. Don't be. I'm neither American nor European, and from my vantage point this is far less America's (US) fault than it is Western Europ

by jeswin 2y ago

> I am ashamed of the US. Don't be. I'm neither American nor European, and from my vantage point this is far less America's (US) fault than it is Western Europe's. US has been asking Europe to increase defense spending for years now, and at the beginning of the war it was below 2% (Germany was spending 1.25% in 2018). Trump said this very publicly in during his first term, and he was ignored and mostly ridiculed. Same thing with the Gazprom deal. Europe's defence should not be entirely on the American tax payer.

herghost 2y ago
> Europe's defence should not be entirely on the American tax payer True. However. The US has wanted to play a major role in Europe for 80 years because it meant they controlled the narrative. This, co-incidentally was favourable to European countries because they could spend their money elsewhere. Over the past few years the US has decided that it would prefer to play in the Pacific rather than Europe and so has been edging away. It's true that Western Europe has been slow to respond, but it's also important to acknowledge that Trump just changed the pace of this redirection and so it's not entirely on one or the other side.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
You fell for the propaganda. The US is not spending for Ukraine the way Trump is trying to make it seem. Sending old equipment that is expensive to dispose of helps the US two-fold. And yes, fighting indirectly with Russia is also helping the US two-fold. Or, was until Trump decided to wake up as a sleeper agent .
- naasking 2y ago
  > ending old equipment that is expensive to dispose of helps the US two-fold. You fell for this propaganda. That equipment is "old" doesn't mean it isn't actively being used. The US military uses and maintains old equipment where it still makes sense, and where there is no viable replacement.
- jeswin 2y ago
  I have made the same argument long before Trump was in the picture. Stop associating everything with Trump or propaganda - people can hold opinions which don't agree with yours.
LeChuck 2y ago
This is a simplistic, even childlike, view of the relationship between the US and Europe. The situation is the way it is because the US wanted it like that. Statesman like Dean Acheson and George Marshall designed it this way. To throw 75 years of relative peace and stability away because you feel it’s unfair? A world that revolves around American military, economic and cultural power, and uses the U.S. dollar as its reserve currency unfair? It galls me that small, arrogant, petty people with no notion of history are throwing all this away because they have a schoolyard understanding of fair and unfair.
- naasking 2y ago
  > It galls me that small, arrogant, petty people with no notion of history are throwing all this away because they have a schoolyard understanding of fair and unfair. Or maybe your ivory tower understanding simply ignores the realities of the working class people who voted for Trump to do away with these policies.
  - SecretDreams 2y ago
    I've got to imagine this forum is officially compromised at this point with these style of posts on here? I'm shocked by the level of pro-Russia content coming from you and other posters. I hope it's just brigading. I'm devastated if any meaningful amount of Americans feel this way. It's a fall from grace I didn't think I'd see in such real time.
    - naasking 2y ago
      The fact that you interpret any pushback to your opinion as pro-Russia is one of the main problems in modern discourse. You're so ideologically captured that everything has become binary.
      - SecretDreams 2y ago
        Quite the opposite. I've just come to the realization that discourse with individuals arguing in bad faith is more harmful to society than any fleeting chance I may have of convincing the individual their path is the wrong one.
wewxjfq 2y ago
> he was ignored and mostly ridiculed Trump disagrees with you: > So we raised [the defense spending of NATO members by] $130 billion almost immediately. We had a meeting with all of the [NATO] countries. I said, “You got to pay.” We got $130 billion more — more. https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-proposed-national-environmental-policy-act-regulations/ https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...

by jeswin 2y ago

herghost 2y ago

> Europe's defence should not be entirely on the American tax payer True. However. The US has wanted to play a major role in Europe for 80 years because it meant they controlled the narrative. This, co-incidentally was favourable to European countries because they could spend their money elsewhere. Over the past few years the US has decided that it would prefer to play in the Pacific rather than Europe and so has been edging away. It's true that Western Europe has been slow to respond, but it's also important to acknowledge that Trump just changed the pace of this redirection and so it's not entirely on one or the other side.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

You fell for the propaganda. The US is not spending for Ukraine the way Trump is trying to make it seem. Sending old equipment that is expensive to dispose of helps the US two-fold. And yes, fighting indirectly with Russia is also helping the US two-fold. Or, was until Trump decided to wake up as a sleeper agent .

naasking 2y ago
> ending old equipment that is expensive to dispose of helps the US two-fold. You fell for this propaganda. That equipment is "old" doesn't mean it isn't actively being used. The US military uses and maintains old equipment where it still makes sense, and where there is no viable replacement.
jeswin 2y ago
I have made the same argument long before Trump was in the picture. Stop associating everything with Trump or propaganda - people can hold opinions which don't agree with yours.

LeChuck 2y ago

This is a simplistic, even childlike, view of the relationship between the US and Europe. The situation is the way it is because the US wanted it like that. Statesman like Dean Acheson and George Marshall designed it this way. To throw 75 years of relative peace and stability away because you feel it’s unfair? A world that revolves around American military, economic and cultural power, and uses the U.S. dollar as its reserve currency unfair? It galls me that small, arrogant, petty people with no notion of history are throwing all this away because they have a schoolyard understanding of fair and unfair.

naasking 2y ago
> It galls me that small, arrogant, petty people with no notion of history are throwing all this away because they have a schoolyard understanding of fair and unfair. Or maybe your ivory tower understanding simply ignores the realities of the working class people who voted for Trump to do away with these policies.
- SecretDreams 2y ago
  I've got to imagine this forum is officially compromised at this point with these style of posts on here? I'm shocked by the level of pro-Russia content coming from you and other posters. I hope it's just brigading. I'm devastated if any meaningful amount of Americans feel this way. It's a fall from grace I didn't think I'd see in such real time.
  - naasking 2y ago
    The fact that you interpret any pushback to your opinion as pro-Russia is one of the main problems in modern discourse. You're so ideologically captured that everything has become binary.
    - SecretDreams 2y ago
      Quite the opposite. I've just come to the realization that discourse with individuals arguing in bad faith is more harmful to society than any fleeting chance I may have of convincing the individual their path is the wrong one.

wewxjfq 2y ago

> he was ignored and mostly ridiculed Trump disagrees with you: > So we raised [the defense spending of NATO members by] $130 billion almost immediately. We had a meeting with all of the [NATO] countries. I said, “You got to pay.” We got $130 billion more — more. https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-proposed-national-environmental-policy-act-regulations/ https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...