5 ms·

How do you conclude that my view of the world comes from YouTube videos? If I am interested in a topic, I actually read the primary sources, and on the war in U

How do you conclude that my view of the world comes from YouTube videos? If I am interested in a topic, I actually read the primary sources, and on the war in Ukraine I have done a fair bit of that in the beginning. In that respect I am easily better informed than 99 % of people that just consume the news in one way or another. And there are essentially two points of view, either Russia has expansionist ambitions or Russia has legitimate security concerns not taken serious by the West. It is trivial to find someone that argues either position. And nuance does not matter here because we disagree on the absolute fundamentals, so it does not even matter whether I agree with every last word as long as I agree with the main points. And am I neither Russian nor American nor do I feel close ties to any side, so I will happily change my position if someone provides the necessary evidence. But so far nobody has done so.

kubb 2y ago
> If I am interested in a topic, I actually read the primary sources, You're not referring to any primary sources here. > In that respect I am easily better informed than 99 % of people Bold claim, but even if true, doesn't mean that you can accurately assess the situation. > there are essentially two points of view, either Russia has expansionist ambitions or Russia has legitimate security concerns not taken serious by the West. The first is evidence based - Russia is expanding. The second has the convenient property that it backwards rationalizes Russia's violent actions, while not looking at the evidence. It requires mental gymnastics, and is therefore more popular with Russians who have an interest in believing it. > nuance does not matter here because we disagree on the absolute fundamentals Like what? Do you deny that Russia invaded Ukraine? > am I neither Russian nor American nor do I feel close ties to any side This is presenting the conflict as just two empires fighting over who gets the influence over the European countries, and completely ignores these countries' own agency. The reason Ukraine wants to join NATO is because they're threatened by a neighbor who actively invades their territory, kills civilians, disrupts their economy ands terrorizes them. Not because they like Biden or want to be American.
- danbruc 2y ago
  Instead of discussing many different points, let us focus on one. You're not referring to any primary sources here. [...] The first is evidence based - Russia is expanding. The second has the convenient property that it backwards rationalizes Russia's violent actions [...] Give me a pre-invasion source that says that Russia has expansionist ambitions, bonus points if that claim is substantiated by evidence. I give you Putin's speech at the 2007 Munich Security Conference [1] and the draft Agreement on measures to ensure the security of The Russian Federation and member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [2]. And just to be clear, I think that declaring that Russia has expansionist ambitions is backwards rationalization, nobody claimed that before the invasion. Russia warning about the consequences of further NATO expansion, especially Ukraine, on the other hand has been stated countless times and for decades now. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 [2] https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en
  - danbruc 2y ago
    Are you still searching?
    - kubb 2y ago
      You ignored the sources I gave you. I don’t think you will accept any source, given that you are willing to write down an invasion, terrorism and disregard for own human casualties to being afraid of a neighbor entering a defensive pact where the US is a member. Imperialism is an element of Russian culture that runs for centuries. You can only question it if you don’t know Russia’s history, or are just arguing in bad faith. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism The criteria you have for interpretation of these sources are asymmetrical for Russia and for Ukraine, and I suspect you might be simply trolling me, so I need to disengage. You’re willing to frame a devastating invasion as protecting themselves from the US! And ignoring Ukraine’s desire to protect themselves by joining a defense alliance! You can also ask any Russian what they think about Ukrainian statehood, but you’ll be determined to search for obvious declarations of expansion intent in their censored media in English. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/features/analysis-putins-imperial-ambitions-and-ukraines-300-year-road-statehood https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/features/analysis-putins-imperial-... It requires a willful ignorance for the country’s structure, history, culture and the ambitions of their leaders. Since you can just move the goalposts and provide a more and more narrow criteria for proof, there’s no way you can be convinced.

kubb 2y ago

> If I am interested in a topic, I actually read the primary sources, You're not referring to any primary sources here. > In that respect I am easily better informed than 99 % of people Bold claim, but even if true, doesn't mean that you can accurately assess the situation. > there are essentially two points of view, either Russia has expansionist ambitions or Russia has legitimate security concerns not taken serious by the West. The first is evidence based - Russia is expanding. The second has the convenient property that it backwards rationalizes Russia's violent actions, while not looking at the evidence. It requires mental gymnastics, and is therefore more popular with Russians who have an interest in believing it. > nuance does not matter here because we disagree on the absolute fundamentals Like what? Do you deny that Russia invaded Ukraine? > am I neither Russian nor American nor do I feel close ties to any side This is presenting the conflict as just two empires fighting over who gets the influence over the European countries, and completely ignores these countries' own agency. The reason Ukraine wants to join NATO is because they're threatened by a neighbor who actively invades their territory, kills civilians, disrupts their economy ands terrorizes them. Not because they like Biden or want to be American.

danbruc 2y ago
Instead of discussing many different points, let us focus on one. You're not referring to any primary sources here. [...] The first is evidence based - Russia is expanding. The second has the convenient property that it backwards rationalizes Russia's violent actions [...] Give me a pre-invasion source that says that Russia has expansionist ambitions, bonus points if that claim is substantiated by evidence. I give you Putin's speech at the 2007 Munich Security Conference [1] and the draft Agreement on measures to ensure the security of The Russian Federation and member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [2]. And just to be clear, I think that declaring that Russia has expansionist ambitions is backwards rationalization, nobody claimed that before the invasion. Russia warning about the consequences of further NATO expansion, especially Ukraine, on the other hand has been stated countless times and for decades now. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44 [2] https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en
- danbruc 2y ago
  Are you still searching?
  - kubb 2y ago
    You ignored the sources I gave you. I don’t think you will accept any source, given that you are willing to write down an invasion, terrorism and disregard for own human casualties to being afraid of a neighbor entering a defensive pact where the US is a member. Imperialism is an element of Russian culture that runs for centuries. You can only question it if you don’t know Russia’s history, or are just arguing in bad faith. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_imperialism The criteria you have for interpretation of these sources are asymmetrical for Russia and for Ukraine, and I suspect you might be simply trolling me, so I need to disengage. You’re willing to frame a devastating invasion as protecting themselves from the US! And ignoring Ukraine’s desire to protect themselves by joining a defense alliance! You can also ask any Russian what they think about Ukrainian statehood, but you’ll be determined to search for obvious declarations of expansion intent in their censored media in English. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/features/analysis-putins-imperial-ambitions-and-ukraines-300-year-road-statehood https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/features/analysis-putins-imperial-... It requires a willful ignorance for the country’s structure, history, culture and the ambitions of their leaders. Since you can just move the goalposts and provide a more and more narrow criteria for proof, there’s no way you can be convinced.