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> Zelensky isn't just a dumb clown, he got tricked into starting a war How do you have a political discussion with someone whose reality is completely upside-d

> Zelensky isn't just a dumb clown, he got tricked into starting a war How do you have a political discussion with someone whose reality is completely upside-down to your own? With someone whose grasp of reality is also factually wrong?

mathfailure 2y ago
[flagged]
- henrikschroder 2y ago
  > Facts are usually universal and rarely disputed. The parent poster claimed that Zelensky started the war. How do you even begin having a conversation with someone who disputes the main fact on how this war started: Vladimir Putin, the dictator of Russia, invaded the neighbouring sovereign nation of Ukraine.
  - mathfailure 2y ago
    Crimea was a disputed region. Russia had claims for it right after the Soviet Union got dissolved, as Crimea was always a Russian territory, not Ukrainian. But secretary general of Soviet Union acting as an individual, without any referendums or something alike decided to just give Crimea as a present to Ukraine. That even happened in the times when it didn't mean much: Russia and Ukraine were the save country - Soviet Union, that's why no one bothered to correct him then and there. It was more of just a gesture. And how can it not be? There was a Russian military base on that peninsula! Who lives on that peninsula? like >90% are Russian nationals. It was Russian de-facto, but just not de-jure. Granted by United Nations - every nation has a right for self-determination, so Russia did some not-so-legal actions by holding a referendum there, just so that the people of Crimea could exercise their right for self-determination. Which they then successfully did and overwhelming majority voted for being with Russia, rather than with Ukraine. These were just the facts, not opinions. Now there is the place for some opinions: you think (as far as I understand) that this is when Russia started a war. And I say I don't see these events as Russia starting war, since the annexation of Crimea was voluntary and happened without a single shot. I don't know of any examples of wars happening without a single shot. I think the consequential actions of Ukraine (that got mad by the fact that it just lost some part of their country due to separatism) is when the war started. That's when a few other regions claimed they'd like to join Russia as well and that's when Ukraine attacked them.
    - weavejester 2y ago
      A referendum carried out by an occupying force means nothing. That's a fact. If Russia were serious about self-determination of the Dombas and Crimea regions, they'd have first proposed a referendum audited by international observers, and pressured Ukraine diplomatically to accept. Instead, Russia chose to invade. They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. Every death from the Ukraine war is entirely on Russia's head.
      - mathfailure 2y ago
        That's not a fact, that's an opinion. Because the sentence isn't detailed enough: means nothing to whom? If the vote results are this definitive, where the majority is so overwhelming that it simply can't be forged - what is even the point of having a referendum? It was merely a formality: no one disputes the results, after all. The international independent observers were invited to said referendum, but they decided not to come. And it is obvious why: because they aren't really that independent after all. Personally I realized that if you dig deep enough you realize that all those documents, formalities, treaties and agreements - they don't mean much, as we aren't some tenant entities with an overlord above us who could judge us in case of disputes. International (I don't even know what's the right word here) situation happens mostly as a consequence of who's more powerful and who controls what. U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. Why can't Russia do just the same? > They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. The comic part of the situation is that Ukraine can stop it any time they choose as well. But neither side wants to stop it THAT way. Each side wants to win in this situation. If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help. Zelensky didn't bow low enough and now gets what he deserves.
        weavejester 2y ago

mathfailure 2y ago

[flagged]

henrikschroder 2y ago
> Facts are usually universal and rarely disputed. The parent poster claimed that Zelensky started the war. How do you even begin having a conversation with someone who disputes the main fact on how this war started: Vladimir Putin, the dictator of Russia, invaded the neighbouring sovereign nation of Ukraine.
- mathfailure 2y ago
  Crimea was a disputed region. Russia had claims for it right after the Soviet Union got dissolved, as Crimea was always a Russian territory, not Ukrainian. But secretary general of Soviet Union acting as an individual, without any referendums or something alike decided to just give Crimea as a present to Ukraine. That even happened in the times when it didn't mean much: Russia and Ukraine were the save country - Soviet Union, that's why no one bothered to correct him then and there. It was more of just a gesture. And how can it not be? There was a Russian military base on that peninsula! Who lives on that peninsula? like >90% are Russian nationals. It was Russian de-facto, but just not de-jure. Granted by United Nations - every nation has a right for self-determination, so Russia did some not-so-legal actions by holding a referendum there, just so that the people of Crimea could exercise their right for self-determination. Which they then successfully did and overwhelming majority voted for being with Russia, rather than with Ukraine. These were just the facts, not opinions. Now there is the place for some opinions: you think (as far as I understand) that this is when Russia started a war. And I say I don't see these events as Russia starting war, since the annexation of Crimea was voluntary and happened without a single shot. I don't know of any examples of wars happening without a single shot. I think the consequential actions of Ukraine (that got mad by the fact that it just lost some part of their country due to separatism) is when the war started. That's when a few other regions claimed they'd like to join Russia as well and that's when Ukraine attacked them.
  - weavejester 2y ago
    A referendum carried out by an occupying force means nothing. That's a fact. If Russia were serious about self-determination of the Dombas and Crimea regions, they'd have first proposed a referendum audited by international observers, and pressured Ukraine diplomatically to accept. Instead, Russia chose to invade. They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. Every death from the Ukraine war is entirely on Russia's head.
    - mathfailure 2y ago
      That's not a fact, that's an opinion. Because the sentence isn't detailed enough: means nothing to whom? If the vote results are this definitive, where the majority is so overwhelming that it simply can't be forged - what is even the point of having a referendum? It was merely a formality: no one disputes the results, after all. The international independent observers were invited to said referendum, but they decided not to come. And it is obvious why: because they aren't really that independent after all. Personally I realized that if you dig deep enough you realize that all those documents, formalities, treaties and agreements - they don't mean much, as we aren't some tenant entities with an overlord above us who could judge us in case of disputes. International (I don't even know what's the right word here) situation happens mostly as a consequence of who's more powerful and who controls what. U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. Why can't Russia do just the same? > They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. The comic part of the situation is that Ukraine can stop it any time they choose as well. But neither side wants to stop it THAT way. Each side wants to win in this situation. If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help. Zelensky didn't bow low enough and now gets what he deserves.
      - weavejester 2y ago