3 ms·

You can find the same thing (well, similar) in San Francisco, Oslo, Antwerpen. It's plain refusal to police and hold up societal values.

namaria 2y ago
That is a simplistic assumption. These cities you mentioned have nowhere near the same problem that Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, for example, have. Brazilian police do overwhelming policing against poor communities and the resulting brutalization only compounds the problem.
- somenameforme 2y ago
  El Salvador is strong evidence that the issue is a lack of enforcement. It hasn't been well covered in the mainstream media because it goes against the typical narrative. Their homicide rate in 2016 was 107 - one of the highest in the world and several times that of Brazil. As of 2024 it's 1.9, a fraction of even the US' rate. [1] The solution? Round up obvious gang members, who conveniently like to mark it all over their body, throw them in prison, throw away the key. If they get violent in the process then don't even bother with the whole prison thing. Were the people just terrified about this horrible abuse of power? No, their Supreme Court made an exception to allow him to run for another term and he won with 80%+ of the vote, his party gaining a super majority, and El Salvador is rapidly going from one of the most dangerous places on Earth to a very safe one. "First they came for the gang members... and then life was pretty great and everybody lived happily ever after." BTW similar sorts of crackdowns have also happened in numerous places including Thailand and the Philippines (in both cases over drugs), with similarly resoundingly positive results. Enforcement works. [1] - https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukele-69384a8705267eaddd18dcd28a53465b https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel...
  - singhrac 2y ago
    I mean, it is covered by mainstream media. There’s like 4 articles on it in the last year in the NYT. Here’s one: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/29/opinion/el-salvador-safety-bukele.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/29/opinion/el-salvador-safet...
  - namaria 2y ago
    Let's see how incarcerating poor people in droves without due legal process will play out in the long term. Brazil has been doing that for a long time. We have very strong nation wide crime syndicates expanding into Latin America now.
  - Larrikin 2y ago
    The problem with El Salvador is that it's a better lock up 9 innocent people than let one guilty person go free type of problem now. And it is guilt by how you look and some association. It's great if you're a tourist with limited Spanish ability and are tired of Costa Rica. Very shitty if you have any family members that get thrown in jail forever with out due process based on how the government felt they looked.
    - somenameforme 2y ago
      It's also apparently great if you live in El Salvador. His approval rating is > 90% and has been flirting with getting mighty close to 100% +/- statistical noise. Gang tattoos are not random - they are intentionally designed and chosen to indicate your unambiguous affiliation with a specific gang in order to prove loyalty and acceptance. In many cases they can also go much further indicating rank, crimes committed, and more. They are also often done in very visible places, including the face and hands. Here [1] for instance are various individuals with MS-13 (which was a group initially started by Salvadoran migrants in LA) tattoos. You're not going to make a mistake there, and the gang itself would have also also taken care of imposters. The groups expressing concern about the gang members tend to be Western human rights organizations in different countries. The president of El Salvador has offered to allow the countries of these groups to take in as many of the prisoners as they would like, if they'd like to more personally look after and ensure their rights. His offers have not been accepted. [1] - https://yandex.com/images/search?text=ms13%20tattoos https://yandex.com/images/search?text=ms13%20tattoos
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
there's no similarity. A general property of cultures that are like Brazil's is over-policing.
- ignoramous 2y ago
  > a general property of cultures that are like Brazil's Interesting take. Another such "superior" culture (or rather, superior military-industrial economy built on sustaining/managing conflict) exports mass policing technology to Brazil. https://idanlandau-com.translate.goog/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression-between-israel-and-brazil/?_x_tr_sl=iw&_x_tr_tl=en https://idanlandau-com.translate.goog/2016/02/04/technologie... (in Hebrew: https://idanlandau.com/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression-between-israel-and-brazil/ https://idanlandau.com/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression...) ...which is OP's point, that it needn't be zero sum, at least not from regional/global superpowers.
vidarh 2y ago
As a quick proxy: Intentional homicide rate per 100,000 in Brazil: 20. In Norway: 0.725, Netherlands: 0.691. United States: 5.763 Not even the US, which those of us in Europe often consider crime-ridden, is nearly as dangerous as Brazil.
- card_zero 2y ago
  Colombia, 25.269. It mysteriously increases with proximity to cocaine. Hmm, but the Netherlands, though. OK maybe scrub that theory.

namaria 2y ago

That is a simplistic assumption. These cities you mentioned have nowhere near the same problem that Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, for example, have. Brazilian police do overwhelming policing against poor communities and the resulting brutalization only compounds the problem.

somenameforme 2y ago
El Salvador is strong evidence that the issue is a lack of enforcement. It hasn't been well covered in the mainstream media because it goes against the typical narrative. Their homicide rate in 2016 was 107 - one of the highest in the world and several times that of Brazil. As of 2024 it's 1.9, a fraction of even the US' rate. [1] The solution? Round up obvious gang members, who conveniently like to mark it all over their body, throw them in prison, throw away the key. If they get violent in the process then don't even bother with the whole prison thing. Were the people just terrified about this horrible abuse of power? No, their Supreme Court made an exception to allow him to run for another term and he won with 80%+ of the vote, his party gaining a super majority, and El Salvador is rapidly going from one of the most dangerous places on Earth to a very safe one. "First they came for the gang members... and then life was pretty great and everybody lived happily ever after." BTW similar sorts of crackdowns have also happened in numerous places including Thailand and the Philippines (in both cases over drugs), with similarly resoundingly positive results. Enforcement works. [1] - https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukele-69384a8705267eaddd18dcd28a53465b https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel...
- singhrac 2y ago
  I mean, it is covered by mainstream media. There’s like 4 articles on it in the last year in the NYT. Here’s one: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/29/opinion/el-salvador-safety-bukele.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/29/opinion/el-salvador-safet...
- namaria 2y ago
  Let's see how incarcerating poor people in droves without due legal process will play out in the long term. Brazil has been doing that for a long time. We have very strong nation wide crime syndicates expanding into Latin America now.
- Larrikin 2y ago
  The problem with El Salvador is that it's a better lock up 9 innocent people than let one guilty person go free type of problem now. And it is guilt by how you look and some association. It's great if you're a tourist with limited Spanish ability and are tired of Costa Rica. Very shitty if you have any family members that get thrown in jail forever with out due process based on how the government felt they looked.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    It's also apparently great if you live in El Salvador. His approval rating is > 90% and has been flirting with getting mighty close to 100% +/- statistical noise. Gang tattoos are not random - they are intentionally designed and chosen to indicate your unambiguous affiliation with a specific gang in order to prove loyalty and acceptance. In many cases they can also go much further indicating rank, crimes committed, and more. They are also often done in very visible places, including the face and hands. Here [1] for instance are various individuals with MS-13 (which was a group initially started by Salvadoran migrants in LA) tattoos. You're not going to make a mistake there, and the gang itself would have also also taken care of imposters. The groups expressing concern about the gang members tend to be Western human rights organizations in different countries. The president of El Salvador has offered to allow the countries of these groups to take in as many of the prisoners as they would like, if they'd like to more personally look after and ensure their rights. His offers have not been accepted. [1] - https://yandex.com/images/search?text=ms13%20tattoos https://yandex.com/images/search?text=ms13%20tattoos
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

there's no similarity. A general property of cultures that are like Brazil's is over-policing.

ignoramous 2y ago
> a general property of cultures that are like Brazil's Interesting take. Another such "superior" culture (or rather, superior military-industrial economy built on sustaining/managing conflict) exports mass policing technology to Brazil. https://idanlandau-com.translate.goog/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression-between-israel-and-brazil/?_x_tr_sl=iw&_x_tr_tl=en https://idanlandau-com.translate.goog/2016/02/04/technologie... (in Hebrew: https://idanlandau.com/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression-between-israel-and-brazil/ https://idanlandau.com/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression...) ...which is OP's point, that it needn't be zero sum, at least not from regional/global superpowers.

vidarh 2y ago

As a quick proxy: Intentional homicide rate per 100,000 in Brazil: 20. In Norway: 0.725, Netherlands: 0.691. United States: 5.763 Not even the US, which those of us in Europe often consider crime-ridden, is nearly as dangerous as Brazil.

card_zero 2y ago
Colombia, 25.269. It mysteriously increases with proximity to cocaine. Hmm, but the Netherlands, though. OK maybe scrub that theory.