4 ms·

The Nabataeans Are Coming

42 points by diodorus 2y ago

throwawayvvv 2y ago
Interesting how this was published right after a popular youtuber goes to that location (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9y6lscJeK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9y6lscJeK4).
- asimeqi 2y ago
  Also this Albanian guy just published a video from the same place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUGbSg3o7p4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUGbSg3o7p4
- blacksmith_tb 2y ago
  Not so surprising that now that the Saudis have built infrastructure to support tourism, more people are visiting? I would go, who doesn't like stunning ruins built by cursed vegetarians?
  - ForTheKidz 2y ago
    > I would go, who doesn't like stunning ruins built by cursed vegetarians? They should honestly steal this pitch, I found myself curious for the first time.
    - blacksmith_tb 2y ago
      When I took Arabic as an undergrad I remembered thinking it was pretty odd that to say "I'm a vegetarian" is to say "I'm a Nabatean"... long cultural memory.
alsetmusic 2y ago
The Fall of Civilizations Podcast has an excellent episode on the Nabataeans. I absolutely recommend the show for anyone who loves history. It’s very deeply researched. https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2022/06/15/ https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2022/06/15/
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
One of the more interesting things that I've learned, is that the older version of Zoroastrianism, was what most folks would think of as "very nice and peaceful." I have heard that it became a bit more hardline, as time wore on, but was never really the devil-worship that Christianity painted it as. I believe that it is still practiced in Iraq and Syria, making it the oldest continuous religion on Earth. What's that saying? "One religion's gods, are another religion's devils?"
- bradrn 2y ago
  > I believe that it is still practiced in Iraq and Syria And Iran, but especially in India: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India
- yubblegum 2y ago
  The religion of Zoroaster, in the context of Eran Shahr (Land of Iran/Arya), has 3 distinct phases. There is the pure Zoroastrianism of the early Hakhamanish Empire and in particular Dariush the Great who was single-mindedly devoted to Ahura-Mazda [1], the name by which the prophet Zoroaster knew God. (It means mighty-wise). His predecessor, the more widely known Cyrus the Great however appears to have been rather relaxed regarding the deity and gave lip service to both Marduk and "god of Israel", depending on which of the subject nations of his empire he wanted to please. Both, however, seem to have had no need for the intermediary of a priesthood. The fire temples of that era (Azar-Padgah, today Azer-Baijaan, and as it with everything apparently "Turkish" /g) are a testament that some form of Zoroastrianism was in fact practiced. The distinction here is that one does not hear much about priesthoods. This empire's kings however very rapidly, it seems, descended into polytheism with various Fereshtah (Angels) showing up alongside of Ahura-Mazda. There then follows the rather lengthy period of Hellenic Persia (the Selucids) and the subsequent Iranic (but not Persian) empire of the Parthians which over time shed the imposed Hellenic cultural elements. It is not clear (to me at least) to what extent Zoroastrianism was prevalent in this era or how it was practiced. The second great Persian empire (& the 3rd Iranian) one was the Sassanids. They very much sought to project themselves as the true inheritors of the Hakhamanish King of Kings, and Zoroastrianism was a very pronounced feature of this era in Iran's history. Regrettably, this is also when institutionalized priesthood [2] became firmly established in Iranian society. A particularly nasty specimen was Kartir [3], a very powerful and influential 'high priest'. This was not a tolerant era in Iran. Fundamentalist, mired in ritual, and brutally suppressive of any competing religion. Christians, Mazdakians, and Manichians were violently suppressed during this era. It is important to note that during this empire the original Zoroastrianism seems to have been a trace memory - many of the secondary scriptures attributed to Zoroaster - the name means Golden Star or the Sun btw - were in fact written in this era. By the time of the advent of Islam, it appears the religion had decayed sufficiently, to wit, the famous companion of prophet Muhammad, Salman the Persian, was actually the son of a high ranking Zoroastrian who first sought spiritual meaning in Christianity and then directed by the Christian monk that he followed to go seek the prophet that was highly anticipated in that era, and this of course was Muhammad. The Parsis are the descendents of the Zoroastrian (elite) that fled the Arabs into what is now known as India. Many centuries later these same diaspora Persians, now Parsis, sent instruction back to the remnant in Iran to re-educate them in the religion. In this era, naturally as a minority religion in both Iran and India, Zoroastrians were obviously not intolerant. As to the ridiculous notion [4] that Zoroastrians at any period could remotely be considered "devil worshippers", let us note that the Abrahamic religions owe the Angels, Heaven, Hell, Judgement, and "a New Earth" (for the "meek") all to the Iranian prophet and his ministry. Even the Arabic Qur'an uses Persian theological terms such as "deen" (religion) and "ferdows" (Pardis now Paradise) and in it Allah insists that "He is al-Aziz al-Hakim" which is the precise formulation of Ahura-Mazda in Arabic ... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sculptures_and_Inscription_of_Darius_the_Great_on_the_Rock_of_Behist%C3%BBn_in_Persia/Annotated/The_Persian_Text https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sculptures_and_Inscriptio... [grep for ahuramazda - 76 instances. Dariush was devoted, without doubt.] [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobad [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartir [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Zoroastrianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Zoroastrianism
decimalenough 2y ago
There's more to the Saudi state tourism effort than al-Ula (I refuse to use the dorky official "AlUla" spelling). Check out how they're gaming the UNESCO World Heritage list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_i... Zero in 2007, now they have 19 sites either already approved or being processed, of varying levels of actual historical value, but all applications doubtless backed by oodles of oil money. My personal favorite, if that's the right word, is Diriyah, where you can now eat Parisian pastries and shop at Dolce & Gabbana while you await the completion of the 400-shop Diriyah Square shopping mall, excuse me, "world-class lifestyle destination". https://www.diriyah.sa/en https://www.diriyah.sa/en https://www.diriyah.sa/en/dine https://www.diriyah.sa/en/dine https://www.diriyah.sa/en/shopping https://www.diriyah.sa/en/shopping https://www.diriyahcompany.sa/en/retail/diriyah-square https://www.diriyahcompany.sa/en/retail/diriyah-square
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  I don't think you need a conspiracy to explain the world heritage list. UNESCO itself has been actively trying to approve more non-european sites in recent decades, after it was pointed out that France alone had more sites than the entire continent of Africa.
mrbluecoat 2y ago
One rock picture?

42 points by diodorus 2y ago

Interesting how this was published right after a popular youtuber goes to that location (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9y6lscJeK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9y6lscJeK4).

asimeqi 2y ago
Also this Albanian guy just published a video from the same place: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUGbSg3o7p4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUGbSg3o7p4
blacksmith_tb 2y ago
Not so surprising that now that the Saudis have built infrastructure to support tourism, more people are visiting? I would go, who doesn't like stunning ruins built by cursed vegetarians?
- ForTheKidz 2y ago
  > I would go, who doesn't like stunning ruins built by cursed vegetarians? They should honestly steal this pitch, I found myself curious for the first time.
  - blacksmith_tb 2y ago
    When I took Arabic as an undergrad I remembered thinking it was pretty odd that to say "I'm a vegetarian" is to say "I'm a Nabatean"... long cultural memory.

alsetmusic 2y ago

The Fall of Civilizations Podcast has an excellent episode on the Nabataeans. I absolutely recommend the show for anyone who loves history. It’s very deeply researched. https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2022/06/15/ https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2022/06/15/

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

One of the more interesting things that I've learned, is that the older version of Zoroastrianism, was what most folks would think of as "very nice and peaceful." I have heard that it became a bit more hardline, as time wore on, but was never really the devil-worship that Christianity painted it as. I believe that it is still practiced in Iraq and Syria, making it the oldest continuous religion on Earth. What's that saying? "One religion's gods, are another religion's devils?"

bradrn 2y ago
> I believe that it is still practiced in Iraq and Syria And Iran, but especially in India: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_India
yubblegum 2y ago
The religion of Zoroaster, in the context of Eran Shahr (Land of Iran/Arya), has 3 distinct phases. There is the pure Zoroastrianism of the early Hakhamanish Empire and in particular Dariush the Great who was single-mindedly devoted to Ahura-Mazda [1], the name by which the prophet Zoroaster knew God. (It means mighty-wise). His predecessor, the more widely known Cyrus the Great however appears to have been rather relaxed regarding the deity and gave lip service to both Marduk and "god of Israel", depending on which of the subject nations of his empire he wanted to please. Both, however, seem to have had no need for the intermediary of a priesthood. The fire temples of that era (Azar-Padgah, today Azer-Baijaan, and as it with everything apparently "Turkish" /g) are a testament that some form of Zoroastrianism was in fact practiced. The distinction here is that one does not hear much about priesthoods. This empire's kings however very rapidly, it seems, descended into polytheism with various Fereshtah (Angels) showing up alongside of Ahura-Mazda. There then follows the rather lengthy period of Hellenic Persia (the Selucids) and the subsequent Iranic (but not Persian) empire of the Parthians which over time shed the imposed Hellenic cultural elements. It is not clear (to me at least) to what extent Zoroastrianism was prevalent in this era or how it was practiced. The second great Persian empire (& the 3rd Iranian) one was the Sassanids. They very much sought to project themselves as the true inheritors of the Hakhamanish King of Kings, and Zoroastrianism was a very pronounced feature of this era in Iran's history. Regrettably, this is also when institutionalized priesthood [2] became firmly established in Iranian society. A particularly nasty specimen was Kartir [3], a very powerful and influential 'high priest'. This was not a tolerant era in Iran. Fundamentalist, mired in ritual, and brutally suppressive of any competing religion. Christians, Mazdakians, and Manichians were violently suppressed during this era. It is important to note that during this empire the original Zoroastrianism seems to have been a trace memory - many of the secondary scriptures attributed to Zoroaster - the name means Golden Star or the Sun btw - were in fact written in this era. By the time of the advent of Islam, it appears the religion had decayed sufficiently, to wit, the famous companion of prophet Muhammad, Salman the Persian, was actually the son of a high ranking Zoroastrian who first sought spiritual meaning in Christianity and then directed by the Christian monk that he followed to go seek the prophet that was highly anticipated in that era, and this of course was Muhammad. The Parsis are the descendents of the Zoroastrian (elite) that fled the Arabs into what is now known as India. Many centuries later these same diaspora Persians, now Parsis, sent instruction back to the remnant in Iran to re-educate them in the religion. In this era, naturally as a minority religion in both Iran and India, Zoroastrians were obviously not intolerant. As to the ridiculous notion [4] that Zoroastrians at any period could remotely be considered "devil worshippers", let us note that the Abrahamic religions owe the Angels, Heaven, Hell, Judgement, and "a New Earth" (for the "meek") all to the Iranian prophet and his ministry. Even the Arabic Qur'an uses Persian theological terms such as "deen" (religion) and "ferdows" (Pardis now Paradise) and in it Allah insists that "He is al-Aziz al-Hakim" which is the precise formulation of Ahura-Mazda in Arabic ... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sculptures_and_Inscription_of_Darius_the_Great_on_the_Rock_of_Behist%C3%BBn_in_Persia/Annotated/The_Persian_Text https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sculptures_and_Inscriptio... [grep for ahuramazda - 76 instances. Dariush was devoted, without doubt.] [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobad [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartir [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Zoroastrianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Zoroastrianism

decimalenough 2y ago

There's more to the Saudi state tourism effort than al-Ula (I refuse to use the dorky official "AlUla" spelling). Check out how they're gaming the UNESCO World Heritage list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_i... Zero in 2007, now they have 19 sites either already approved or being processed, of varying levels of actual historical value, but all applications doubtless backed by oodles of oil money. My personal favorite, if that's the right word, is Diriyah, where you can now eat Parisian pastries and shop at Dolce & Gabbana while you await the completion of the 400-shop Diriyah Square shopping mall, excuse me, "world-class lifestyle destination". https://www.diriyah.sa/en https://www.diriyah.sa/en https://www.diriyah.sa/en/dine https://www.diriyah.sa/en/dine https://www.diriyah.sa/en/shopping https://www.diriyah.sa/en/shopping https://www.diriyahcompany.sa/en/retail/diriyah-square https://www.diriyahcompany.sa/en/retail/diriyah-square

AlotOfReading 2y ago
I don't think you need a conspiracy to explain the world heritage list. UNESCO itself has been actively trying to approve more non-european sites in recent decades, after it was pointed out that France alone had more sites than the entire continent of Africa.

mrbluecoat 2y ago

One rock picture?