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Trump and Vance were saying things like "you're being disrespectful", and "you haven't said 'thank you'"--this level of argument is completely unproductive; it'

Trump and Vance were saying things like "you're being disrespectful", and "you haven't said 'thank you'"--this level of argument is completely unproductive; it's what you would expect to hear from parents of dysfunctional families, not from world leaders.

noirbot 2y ago
And it betrays a total lack of care for substance. Zelensky has delivered public speeches in the US, while wearing a suit if that matters saying thanks to the US for their support. He just said it to the whole country, and while Biden was president. Trump doesn't care if the US gets credit, he wants to steal that credit personally, despite literally having been impeached for trying to extort Zelensky. It's amazing levels of personal pettiness and ego. That's before you get to them inviting a Russian state news person to watch and then claiming they "snuck in" as if someone can just bumble into a meeting of world leaders.
- DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
  Trump didn't demand credit or thanks from Zelensky. Vance did. And Vance was literally just dropping hints to back down in front of the media and to present himself as grateful, because he saw the important talks about to be derailed before they even began: > Vance: Have you said thank you once? > Zelenskyy: A lot of times. > Vance: No, in this meeting, this entire meeting? Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who’s trying to save your country. (And the entire heated conversation in general) IMO, the language barrier really screwed Zelensky over. > [Zelensky not wearing a suit] Trump's attitude is that how you dress to an event is a sign of respect for the people you meet. Many disagree with this attitude, but if that's how someone you're going to meet thinks, then you adjust to it. Like not showing up in gym clothes to a job interview.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    The thing is... That even if Zelensky did have the perfect dress code, perfect niceties, the whole thing was a setup with trying to pressure Zelensky into a bad deal. And if Zelensky was not to accept it the goal was to humiliate and embarrass him publically. So Vance and Trump would have gone for any other possible targets they can find, or alternatively invent some. So they kept provoking Zelensky whole time and even before when Trump called Zelensky a dictator, which is far more disrespectful than anything Zelensky has done. Even through that, it's crazy the patience Zelensky had.
    - DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
      > the whole thing was a setup with trying to pressure Zelensky into a bad deal. The deal was quite good. It basically coupled the rebuilding of Ukraine (and ownership shares resulting from it) to a fund, rather than the government itself. If Russia had then taken over Ukraine, they'd have to expropriate the fund to gain any benefits, but that'd also mean expropriating the minority ownership of the US. > Trump called Zelensky a dictator, which is far more disrespectful than anything Zelensky has done. Sure, but he is, and that's a huge issue for any negotiations going forward. Ukrainian martial law only delays parliamentary elections, not presidential ones. If Zelensky doesn't either get a democratic mandate or recognized as an official negotiator by the Verkhovna Rada, any agreements made with him can later just be rejected by Ukraine.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        The deal was awful and Ukraine would get nothing but delayed destruction. he isn't a fool. Rebuilding is useless with security to not have it torn down in 5 years when Russia recovers. >Sure, but he is Oh, so we're not going to have a productive conversation, then. >"PACE President Tiny Kox: It is up to the Government, Parliament and the people of Ukraine to decide when and how to conduct elections" https://www.coe.int/en/web/kyiv/-/pace-president-tiny-kox-it-is-up-to-the-government-parliament-and-the-people-of-ukraine-to-decide-when-and-how-to-conduct-elections https://www.coe.int/en/web/kyiv/-/pace-president-tiny-kox-it... Pretty much every country has martial law rules. So disagree or not, to call someone a dictator while defending against a war is outright malicious in my mind.
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    Trump demanding that Zelenskyy dress the way Trump would prefer is what a narcissist does. "Oh, he must be wearing that just to upset me." No you self-important tool, he's wearing that because his nation is at war with Russia. Zelenskyy wears military clothes to every meeting, with every leader, not just you.
    - ttyprintk 2y ago
      I found the matching suits curious: https://apnews.com/article/republicans-trump-zelenskyy-meeting-64ec4a67fce4f04a2d189a1e0204b023 https://apnews.com/article/republicans-trump-zelenskyy-meeti... See second image.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
      > Or showing up to a cabinet meeting in a graphic t shirt and ball cap? Sure, not what Trump likes. But what Zelensky was wearing did have very little influence on the outcome of the meeting at best. People dislike Zelensky having been called out on not wearing a suit, I merely explained why Trump puts importance on this. We don't know if Trump called out Musk on not wearing a suit and what Musk's response might have been. Overall the importance of wearing a suit is quite low, not at all proportionate to the outrage of Zelensky being called out for not wearing one. > Trump has no stable “attitude” toward anything whatsoever except whatever he thinks accrues him more power and wealth, full stop. How would Zelensky wearing a suit help Trump to further this agenda of his? > He’s a well known germaphobe who will let a child wipe snot on his work desk Yes, he is. But he tries to hide his actions resulting from that. Like getting behind something like a chair and wiping his hand on his suit. We don't know if he cleaned the desk afterwards. What, in your opinion, would have been the correct action he should have taken against the child?
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        … I don’t think anyone on “Ukraine’s side” here thinks it’s actually relevant whether Zelensky wore a suit or not. It is right-wing Twitter that’s acting like it’s such a huge disrespect and affront to America. Your point is that Trump cares about decorum. My point is that Trump cares about power, and he would seize on whatever little thing he could to try to gain more power over our wartime ally. The suit is obviously a red herring. You think when bullies make fun of a kid’s shoes they actually care about fashion? Duh: no. When someone calls out a bully for making fun of someone’s shoes, is it because they give a fuck about their fashion choices? Duh: no. That’s all that’s going on here.
        DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
        Yup, sums it up nicely, I think.
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    Just to clarify, Zelensky thanked Trump for the invitation at the beginning of the meeting.
heresie-dabord 2y ago
> "you're being disrespectful" This, coming from: the one who openly calls opponents insulting names and openly proposes annexing other countries like a drivelling, senile elder; and the other, who toured Europe like a witless yokel scolding EU leaders for not being democracies... This is the US losing its credibility and the confidence of its allies at a time when the US depends on these alliances.
DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
It's something the US patriotic wing cares about a lot. It doesn't take much to satisfy their need (basically just nice words about the US), but they'll absolutely burn bridges if they come to the conclusion that you're unwilling to show the US this courtesy. Trump very obviously being part of this wing, is one of the reasons that gave his campaign for the first term such a huge boost. People were convinced that he wouldn't betray the US, like they were betrayed by nearly every politician before (but maybe Bill Clinton, although, in hindsight, he absolutely screwed over Europe by continuing the Russian shock therapy and not supporting Russia in updating the CFE treaty). Vance is somewhat part of this wing, too, but to a much lesser degree than Trump. E.g. he acknowledged in his speech at the MUC SecConf, that the US made what he considers to be past mistakes, but Trump pretty much never acknowledges what he blames on Biden and Obama to have ever been official US policy (even if he doesn't outright deny it). . Hence when Zelensky suggested the US will "feel it", too, in a slightly threatening way (due to the language barrier, I guess), Trump literally blew a fuse. You could see his head changing color in real time. I'm surprised he had the patience left to toss out the media semi-politely. IMO, Zelensky should have picked up on Vance's hints to present himself grateful and stop trying to get commitments from the US infront of the media. Next time he should negotiate in his native language and bring a very capable translator, because picking up on such nuances is anything but easy if you're quite inexperienced in a language. . Trump is not really vindictive, despite his talking points (see him refusing to retaliate on Iran for shooting down that $150M drone, him not going after H. Clinton at all once in office, selecting Vance as his Vice, meeting with Scarborough and Brzezinski, ...). So Zelensky got a good chance to set things straight, but Trump has also made clear that how the US progresses from here is up to Ukraine making the next move. Knowing Trump a bit, he will push ahead with talks with Russia and keep increasing pressure on Ukraine until Zelensky agrees to a ceasefire and joins the table by making talks with Russia legal again. . Also Zelensky should take that "minerals deal". Despite being sold as such, it doesn't give any minerals to the US, but establishes an Ukrainian semi-sovereign fund with the focus of rebuilding Ukraine, financed through the Ukrainian government's revenue from natural resources and financial injections by the US. Over time it'll also turn into a fully sovereign fund for Ukraine (unless the US keeps pumping absurd amounts of money into it) and Ukraine can withdraw money from it if they need it elsewhere.
- 2y ago
bregma 2y ago
It's exactly the dialog a gang member would use during a shakedown.

noirbot 2y ago

And it betrays a total lack of care for substance. Zelensky has delivered public speeches in the US, while wearing a suit if that matters saying thanks to the US for their support. He just said it to the whole country, and while Biden was president. Trump doesn't care if the US gets credit, he wants to steal that credit personally, despite literally having been impeached for trying to extort Zelensky. It's amazing levels of personal pettiness and ego. That's before you get to them inviting a Russian state news person to watch and then claiming they "snuck in" as if someone can just bumble into a meeting of world leaders.

DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
Trump didn't demand credit or thanks from Zelensky. Vance did. And Vance was literally just dropping hints to back down in front of the media and to present himself as grateful, because he saw the important talks about to be derailed before they even began: > Vance: Have you said thank you once? > Zelenskyy: A lot of times. > Vance: No, in this meeting, this entire meeting? Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who’s trying to save your country. (And the entire heated conversation in general) IMO, the language barrier really screwed Zelensky over. > [Zelensky not wearing a suit] Trump's attitude is that how you dress to an event is a sign of respect for the people you meet. Many disagree with this attitude, but if that's how someone you're going to meet thinks, then you adjust to it. Like not showing up in gym clothes to a job interview.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  The thing is... That even if Zelensky did have the perfect dress code, perfect niceties, the whole thing was a setup with trying to pressure Zelensky into a bad deal. And if Zelensky was not to accept it the goal was to humiliate and embarrass him publically. So Vance and Trump would have gone for any other possible targets they can find, or alternatively invent some. So they kept provoking Zelensky whole time and even before when Trump called Zelensky a dictator, which is far more disrespectful than anything Zelensky has done. Even through that, it's crazy the patience Zelensky had.
  - DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
    > the whole thing was a setup with trying to pressure Zelensky into a bad deal. The deal was quite good. It basically coupled the rebuilding of Ukraine (and ownership shares resulting from it) to a fund, rather than the government itself. If Russia had then taken over Ukraine, they'd have to expropriate the fund to gain any benefits, but that'd also mean expropriating the minority ownership of the US. > Trump called Zelensky a dictator, which is far more disrespectful than anything Zelensky has done. Sure, but he is, and that's a huge issue for any negotiations going forward. Ukrainian martial law only delays parliamentary elections, not presidential ones. If Zelensky doesn't either get a democratic mandate or recognized as an official negotiator by the Verkhovna Rada, any agreements made with him can later just be rejected by Ukraine.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      The deal was awful and Ukraine would get nothing but delayed destruction. he isn't a fool. Rebuilding is useless with security to not have it torn down in 5 years when Russia recovers. >Sure, but he is Oh, so we're not going to have a productive conversation, then. >"PACE President Tiny Kox: It is up to the Government, Parliament and the people of Ukraine to decide when and how to conduct elections" https://www.coe.int/en/web/kyiv/-/pace-president-tiny-kox-it-is-up-to-the-government-parliament-and-the-people-of-ukraine-to-decide-when-and-how-to-conduct-elections https://www.coe.int/en/web/kyiv/-/pace-president-tiny-kox-it... Pretty much every country has martial law rules. So disagree or not, to call someone a dictator while defending against a war is outright malicious in my mind.
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  Trump demanding that Zelenskyy dress the way Trump would prefer is what a narcissist does. "Oh, he must be wearing that just to upset me." No you self-important tool, he's wearing that because his nation is at war with Russia. Zelenskyy wears military clothes to every meeting, with every leader, not just you.
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    I found the matching suits curious: https://apnews.com/article/republicans-trump-zelenskyy-meeting-64ec4a67fce4f04a2d189a1e0204b023 https://apnews.com/article/republicans-trump-zelenskyy-meeti... See second image.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
    > Or showing up to a cabinet meeting in a graphic t shirt and ball cap? Sure, not what Trump likes. But what Zelensky was wearing did have very little influence on the outcome of the meeting at best. People dislike Zelensky having been called out on not wearing a suit, I merely explained why Trump puts importance on this. We don't know if Trump called out Musk on not wearing a suit and what Musk's response might have been. Overall the importance of wearing a suit is quite low, not at all proportionate to the outrage of Zelensky being called out for not wearing one. > Trump has no stable “attitude” toward anything whatsoever except whatever he thinks accrues him more power and wealth, full stop. How would Zelensky wearing a suit help Trump to further this agenda of his? > He’s a well known germaphobe who will let a child wipe snot on his work desk Yes, he is. But he tries to hide his actions resulting from that. Like getting behind something like a chair and wiping his hand on his suit. We don't know if he cleaned the desk afterwards. What, in your opinion, would have been the correct action he should have taken against the child?
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      … I don’t think anyone on “Ukraine’s side” here thinks it’s actually relevant whether Zelensky wore a suit or not. It is right-wing Twitter that’s acting like it’s such a huge disrespect and affront to America. Your point is that Trump cares about decorum. My point is that Trump cares about power, and he would seize on whatever little thing he could to try to gain more power over our wartime ally. The suit is obviously a red herring. You think when bullies make fun of a kid’s shoes they actually care about fashion? Duh: no. When someone calls out a bully for making fun of someone’s shoes, is it because they give a fuck about their fashion choices? Duh: no. That’s all that’s going on here.
      - DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago
        Yup, sums it up nicely, I think.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  Just to clarify, Zelensky thanked Trump for the invitation at the beginning of the meeting.

heresie-dabord 2y ago

> "you're being disrespectful" This, coming from: the one who openly calls opponents insulting names and openly proposes annexing other countries like a drivelling, senile elder; and the other, who toured Europe like a witless yokel scolding EU leaders for not being democracies... This is the US losing its credibility and the confidence of its allies at a time when the US depends on these alliances.

DeepSeaTortoise 2y ago

It's something the US patriotic wing cares about a lot. It doesn't take much to satisfy their need (basically just nice words about the US), but they'll absolutely burn bridges if they come to the conclusion that you're unwilling to show the US this courtesy. Trump very obviously being part of this wing, is one of the reasons that gave his campaign for the first term such a huge boost. People were convinced that he wouldn't betray the US, like they were betrayed by nearly every politician before (but maybe Bill Clinton, although, in hindsight, he absolutely screwed over Europe by continuing the Russian shock therapy and not supporting Russia in updating the CFE treaty). Vance is somewhat part of this wing, too, but to a much lesser degree than Trump. E.g. he acknowledged in his speech at the MUC SecConf, that the US made what he considers to be past mistakes, but Trump pretty much never acknowledges what he blames on Biden and Obama to have ever been official US policy (even if he doesn't outright deny it). . Hence when Zelensky suggested the US will "feel it", too, in a slightly threatening way (due to the language barrier, I guess), Trump literally blew a fuse. You could see his head changing color in real time. I'm surprised he had the patience left to toss out the media semi-politely. IMO, Zelensky should have picked up on Vance's hints to present himself grateful and stop trying to get commitments from the US infront of the media. Next time he should negotiate in his native language and bring a very capable translator, because picking up on such nuances is anything but easy if you're quite inexperienced in a language. . Trump is not really vindictive, despite his talking points (see him refusing to retaliate on Iran for shooting down that $150M drone, him not going after H. Clinton at all once in office, selecting Vance as his Vice, meeting with Scarborough and Brzezinski, ...). So Zelensky got a good chance to set things straight, but Trump has also made clear that how the US progresses from here is up to Ukraine making the next move. Knowing Trump a bit, he will push ahead with talks with Russia and keep increasing pressure on Ukraine until Zelensky agrees to a ceasefire and joins the table by making talks with Russia legal again. . Also Zelensky should take that "minerals deal". Despite being sold as such, it doesn't give any minerals to the US, but establishes an Ukrainian semi-sovereign fund with the focus of rebuilding Ukraine, financed through the Ukrainian government's revenue from natural resources and financial injections by the US. Over time it'll also turn into a fully sovereign fund for Ukraine (unless the US keeps pumping absurd amounts of money into it) and Ukraine can withdraw money from it if they need it elsewhere.

2y ago

bregma 2y ago

It's exactly the dialog a gang member would use during a shakedown.