5 ms·

> LLMs are so, so far from being able to the thinking that goes in a real-time musical improvisation context it's laughable. have you actually tried any of the

> LLMs are so, so far from being able to the thinking that goes in a real-time musical improvisation context it's laughable. have you actually tried any of the commercial AI music generation tools from the last year, eg suno? not an LLM but rather (probably) diffusion, it made my jaw drop the first time i played with it. but it turns out you can also use diffusion for language models https://www.inceptionlabs.ai/ https://www.inceptionlabs.ai/

iainctduncan 2y ago
This is exactly my point. The idea that generating music is the sum total of all the cognition that goes on in real time is totally off base. Can we make crappy simulacrums of recorded music? sure. Can we make a program that could: work the physical instrument, react in milliseconds to other players, create new work off input it's never heard before, react to things in the room, and do a myriad of other things a performer does on stage in real time? Not even remotely close. THAT is what would be required to call it AGI – thinking (ALL the thinking) on par with a highly trained human. Pretending anything else is AGI is nonsense. Is it impressive? sure. Frighteningly so even. But it's not AGI and the claims that it is are pure huckersterism. They just round the term down to whatever the hell is convenient for the pitch.
- nyolfen 2y ago
  yes, i absolutely believe we are less than two years from what you describe (aside from physically manipulating an instrument -- but robotics seems to be quickly picking up pace too). what you are imagining is only a difference in speed, not kind. this is the 'god of the gaps' argument, over and over, every time some insurmountable previous benchmark is shattered -- well, it will never be able to do my special thing > thinking (ALL the thinking) on par with a highly trained human you are mistaking means for ends. "an automobile must be able to perform dressage on par with a fine thoroughbred!"
  - kranke155 2y ago
    We are likely more than 10 year away. The algorithms haven’t been found yet I think.
  - namaria 2y ago
    There is no god of the gaps argument being made. The argument is pretty clear. LLMs are at a local optimum that is quite far from the global optimum of actual general intelligence that humans have achieved. Some like Penrose even argue that the global optimum of general intelligence and consciousness is a fully physical process, yes, but that involves uncomputable physics and thus permanently out of reach of whatever computers can do.
    - akoboldfrying 2y ago
      >but that involves uncomputable physics and thus permanently out of reach of whatever computers can do. And yet is somehow within reach of a fertilised human egg. It's time to either invoke mystical dimensions of reality separating us from those barbarian computers, or admit that one day soon they'll be able to do intelligence too.
      - namaria 2y ago
        There's no magical thinking involved in discussing the limits of computability. That is a well researched area that was involved in the invention of digital computers. Penrose's argument is interesting and I am inclined to agree with it. I might very well be wrong, but I don't think the accusation of magical thinking is warranted.
        akoboldfrying 2y ago
        I'm arguing that, if a fertilised egg is really capable of fundamentally more than computers will ever be, then the only possible explanation is that the egg posseses extraphysical properties not possessed by any computer. (And I'm strongly hinting that this "explanation" should be considered laughable in this day and age.)
        namaria 2y ago
        > the only possible explanation is that the egg posseses extraphysical properties This is wrong. Computability is by no means the same as physicality. That's the whole point and you're just ignoring it to make some strawman accusation of ridiculousness.
  - schwartzworld 2y ago
    > aside from physically manipulating an instrument This is the easiest part. Keyboards are only necessary if you have fingers, an AI could very easily send midi notes directly to the instrument.
- contrast 2y ago
  “Pretending anything else is AGI is nonsense” Is it? I wasn’t aware of “playing a physical instrument on stage with millisecond response times” as a criterion. I’m also confused by the implication that professional composers aren’t using intelligence in their work. You’re talking about what is sometimes called “superhuman AGI”, human level performance in all things. But AGI includes reaching human levels of performance across a range of cognitive tasks, not ALL cognitive tasks. If someone claimed they had invented AGI because amongst other things, it could churn out a fresh, original, good composition the day after hearing new input - I think it would be fair to argue that is human level performance in composition. Defining fresh, good, original is what makes it composition. Not whether it was done in real time; that’s just mechanics. You can conceivably build something that plays live on stage, responding to other players, creating a “new work”, using super fast detection and probabilistic functions without any intelligence at all.
  - refactor_master 2y ago
    https://youtu.be/Gs3ocG5yW88 https://youtu.be/Gs3ocG5yW88 This has aged well and continues to do so.
borgdefenser 2y ago
I have tried them all. They are so unimpressive. It is not the fault of the model though. MusicLM shows what could be done. The problem is they just aren't trained on enough interesting music to impress me. Of course, if you never played music before I am sure it is super cool to produce music. It would be like if the AI art models had only been trained on a small amount of drawings. Compared to being trained on every piece of recorded music ever produced?We are just so far from that. I think to really do something interesting you would have to train your own model.
BeFlatXIII 2y ago
They're breathtaking party tricks when you first encounter them, but the similarity in outputs soon becomes apparent. Good luck coercing them to make properly sad or angsty songs.

iainctduncan 2y ago

This is exactly my point. The idea that generating music is the sum total of all the cognition that goes on in real time is totally off base. Can we make crappy simulacrums of recorded music? sure. Can we make a program that could: work the physical instrument, react in milliseconds to other players, create new work off input it's never heard before, react to things in the room, and do a myriad of other things a performer does on stage in real time? Not even remotely close. THAT is what would be required to call it AGI – thinking (ALL the thinking) on par with a highly trained human. Pretending anything else is AGI is nonsense. Is it impressive? sure. Frighteningly so even. But it's not AGI and the claims that it is are pure huckersterism. They just round the term down to whatever the hell is convenient for the pitch.

nyolfen 2y ago
yes, i absolutely believe we are less than two years from what you describe (aside from physically manipulating an instrument -- but robotics seems to be quickly picking up pace too). what you are imagining is only a difference in speed, not kind. this is the 'god of the gaps' argument, over and over, every time some insurmountable previous benchmark is shattered -- well, it will never be able to do my special thing > thinking (ALL the thinking) on par with a highly trained human you are mistaking means for ends. "an automobile must be able to perform dressage on par with a fine thoroughbred!"
- kranke155 2y ago
  We are likely more than 10 year away. The algorithms haven’t been found yet I think.
- namaria 2y ago
  There is no god of the gaps argument being made. The argument is pretty clear. LLMs are at a local optimum that is quite far from the global optimum of actual general intelligence that humans have achieved. Some like Penrose even argue that the global optimum of general intelligence and consciousness is a fully physical process, yes, but that involves uncomputable physics and thus permanently out of reach of whatever computers can do.
  - akoboldfrying 2y ago
    >but that involves uncomputable physics and thus permanently out of reach of whatever computers can do. And yet is somehow within reach of a fertilised human egg. It's time to either invoke mystical dimensions of reality separating us from those barbarian computers, or admit that one day soon they'll be able to do intelligence too.
    - namaria 2y ago
      There's no magical thinking involved in discussing the limits of computability. That is a well researched area that was involved in the invention of digital computers. Penrose's argument is interesting and I am inclined to agree with it. I might very well be wrong, but I don't think the accusation of magical thinking is warranted.
      - akoboldfrying 2y ago
        I'm arguing that, if a fertilised egg is really capable of fundamentally more than computers will ever be, then the only possible explanation is that the egg posseses extraphysical properties not possessed by any computer. (And I'm strongly hinting that this "explanation" should be considered laughable in this day and age.)
        namaria 2y ago
        > the only possible explanation is that the egg posseses extraphysical properties This is wrong. Computability is by no means the same as physicality. That's the whole point and you're just ignoring it to make some strawman accusation of ridiculousness.
- schwartzworld 2y ago
  > aside from physically manipulating an instrument This is the easiest part. Keyboards are only necessary if you have fingers, an AI could very easily send midi notes directly to the instrument.
contrast 2y ago
“Pretending anything else is AGI is nonsense” Is it? I wasn’t aware of “playing a physical instrument on stage with millisecond response times” as a criterion. I’m also confused by the implication that professional composers aren’t using intelligence in their work. You’re talking about what is sometimes called “superhuman AGI”, human level performance in all things. But AGI includes reaching human levels of performance across a range of cognitive tasks, not ALL cognitive tasks. If someone claimed they had invented AGI because amongst other things, it could churn out a fresh, original, good composition the day after hearing new input - I think it would be fair to argue that is human level performance in composition. Defining fresh, good, original is what makes it composition. Not whether it was done in real time; that’s just mechanics. You can conceivably build something that plays live on stage, responding to other players, creating a “new work”, using super fast detection and probabilistic functions without any intelligence at all.
- refactor_master 2y ago
  https://youtu.be/Gs3ocG5yW88 https://youtu.be/Gs3ocG5yW88 This has aged well and continues to do so.

borgdefenser 2y ago

I have tried them all. They are so unimpressive. It is not the fault of the model though. MusicLM shows what could be done. The problem is they just aren't trained on enough interesting music to impress me. Of course, if you never played music before I am sure it is super cool to produce music. It would be like if the AI art models had only been trained on a small amount of drawings. Compared to being trained on every piece of recorded music ever produced?We are just so far from that. I think to really do something interesting you would have to train your own model.

BeFlatXIII 2y ago

They're breathtaking party tricks when you first encounter them, but the similarity in outputs soon becomes apparent. Good luck coercing them to make properly sad or angsty songs.