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Craigslist now asks for exclusive license when posting
- threepipeproblm 14y agoFor whatever reason, my intuition suggests this is a clear sign that Craigslist won't be bothering us much longer.
- bob_george33 14y agoStandard move I'd say. Stops people from making services that pull information from Craigslist and advertise it elsewhere.
- NoPiece 14y agoSeems more like a reaction to Padmapper and 3taps.
- dangrossman 14y agoIt's not very standard. The standard text in a UGC site's terms is to grant a non-exclusive license to the submitted content, and does not grant the sole rights to enforce the copyright in that content. This text on the submission form is both new and non-standard; it doesn't even agree with what's in their TOS document. An exclusive license means landlords themselves are giving up their right to post the same listing on other rental listing sites, for example, by using a tool that would post the exact same listing to multiple sites.
- jonathanberger 14y agoThanks for pointing this out Dan, I updated the post to include snippets of other popular terms. You're absolutely right.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- rsanchez1 14y agoCraigslist, what the hell?
- rincewind 14y agoDoes this license mean copyright? In Germany you cannot protect facts with copyright. Something like "Flat for rent: $size m², $price €, $coordinates, $link" seems more like a fact or an idea.
- dangrossman 14y agoYou can't protect facts with copyright anywhere, AFAIK. The listing consists of more than facts, including a descriptive title, the descriptive text of the listing, and the attached images. These are all protected. At the moment, PadMapper does not copy any of these things. It's been pointed out. Let's not rehash what's already been said ad nauseum in the PadMapper story comments and stick to discussing this submission.
- rincewind 14y agoI did not mean to change the subject. This measure just seems ineffective at stopping PadMapper. But it seems like it will stop people from posting their ads elsewhere.
- analog 14y agoI'm not sure that a title or short description would be copyrightable "a work must meet minimal standards of originality in order to qualify for copyright" The photographs however would be covered by copyright. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
- dedward 14y agoDoes it need ot be copyrightable in order for you to agree to contractual terms about something?
- jahewson 14y agoYes, becuse if you grant someone exclusive rights then you need to possess those exclusive rights in the first place. If the material is not protectable, then you don't have any rights to grant to others.
- melvinmt 14y agoNice, you take the time to craft your listing on craigslist and now you've lost the right to repost your listing ANYWHERE else. I think we can safely assume that craigslist has a monopoly in (free) online classifieds and this reeks of very anti-competitive behavior. Wonder what the DOJ thinks of this.
- achompas 14y agoThis is a bit knee-jerk, no? I highly doubt you waive the right to repost your listing ANYWHERE; rather, this is legalese allowing them to sue anyone using their listings without consent.
- dangrossman 14y agoRead the text. Exclusive license. That means you may not license your post to any other site; giving someone else permission to display your listing is a grant of a license, and such a license is explicitly mentioned in the terms of any UGC site, including Craigslist. The difference is those other terms always say NON-exclusive. Go ahead and stop by YouTube and do a search for the word. This isn't boilerplate legalese.
- jc123 14y agoHard to see the day when craigslist tries to sue posters for this "violation"; so effectively posters can ignore this legalese as it's targeted to give craiglist ammunition against other sites.
- talaketu 14y agoProbably not the best advice from a legal or ethical standpoint.
- ralfn 14y agoTo be fair, consumer organisations here in Holland once took 25 EULA's to a judge. Less than 1% of what was stated would ever be held up in a dutch court. Things like the concept that a company can just define their liabilty themselves. Or how they have the right to share personal data with 3rd parties. The laws can not overwritten with contracts, esspecially ones without signatures. In essence, and this was quite funny to realize. There is no EULA that would reduce liability, or increase rights of the seller. An EULA can really only be used against the company. Im not sure about the situation in the US. But the same should be true to some extend. EULA are fake legal documents lawyers sell as if they have any value. Its a complete scam.
- prawn 14y agoFrom Wikipedia: "In December 2006, at the UBS Global Media Conference in New York, Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster told Wall Street analysts that Craigslist has little interest in maximizing profit, instead it prefers to help users find cars, apartments, jobs, and dates."
- achompas 14y agoThere's a big gap between "little interest in maximizing profit" and "little interest in fending off existential threats," no?
- wpietri 14y agoNo. Either your first priority is delivering value to your users or it's not. Craigslist has changed from one to the other. Padmapper isn't the existential threat. It's CL's failure to keep improving.
- gojomo 14y agoPadmapper alone isn't the existential threat. But other well-funded competitors using the same arguments/techniques to offer 'all Craiglist ads, and then more' could be. Hence Craiglist's assertiveness before the principle of reuse is established.
- achompas 14y agoDespite the reigning opinion on HN, adding this legalese to postings does not hinder CL's ability to serve its users.
- bwb 14y agoGood bye craiglist!
- achompas 14y agoIANAL, of course, but before we all bring out the pitchforks, what does the word "content" mean in Clicking "Continue" confirms that craigslist is the exclusive licensee of this content Does it refer, as many posters suggest below, to the item sold in the listing? Or does it only refer to the contents of the listing? If it's the former, I question its legal defensibility (oh man I'm not a lawyer, but I think that's right). If it's the latter, this is a clear pre-emptive move against future PadMapper-type problems.
- smsm42 14y agoSaying you have something doesn't really mean you have something - I'm not sure that would stand in court. IANAL, of course, and anything can happen, especially in bizarro world of computerized information where there's no legal practice refined by hundreds of years of common sense applications, so such thing may probably be useful for Craigslist to go after some content scrappers. But I seriously doubt they would ever go after the post owner for reporting his own content.
- wpietri 14y agoWhat's up with their recent change in behavior? Craig's public statements are basically, "Hey, I'm just a customer service guy; talk to the CEO." And as far as I've seen, the CEO has stayed quiet. If they're worried about losing relevancy to innovators, why not try innovating rather than legal maneuvering?
- danielweber 14y agoThe best way to play a game of chicken is to publicly tear the steering wheel out of the car. Craig is acting similarly, pretending there is nothing he can do, so you won't complain to him.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- einhverfr 14y agoSo if you are a self-published author I guess you had better not sell your books on Craigslist, using a part of the blurb posted on the back!
- grabeh 14y agoThis move is against the grain of other sites which accept UGC. It has obviously been moved to the submission page from the main terms of use to attract attention to the clause, in order to increase the chances that Craigslist can rely on it in future. It will also allow them to argue that subject to compliance with the licence, the information could only have been accessed from CL. The reality of course is that for a certain number people (perhaps limited) CL will be the only site where the submit content and will therefore not be concerned about granting an exclusive licence. However, I'm sure a greater percentage of people will not necessarily grasp what Craigslist are asking for here and will not be put off posting elsewhere. Of course, CL will not go around enforcing the terms of the exclusive licence against the user. The grant of exclusivity will simply allow them to argue that subject to compliance with the licence, the information could only have been accessed from CL, or at least is more likely to have been obtained from CL. If Craigslist are serious about ensuring they can rely on the exclusive licence it should be made clear that the grant means the user can't post the content anywhere else however this may mean that people would be more put off using the site. My view is that it's a shame that CL are now attempting to assert an even tighter stranglehold over information originating from users. In the long run it may assist Padmapper in pushing people away from using CL in the first instance. It's also worth nothing that their terms of use need to be updated to reflect the exclusivity change: http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use
- ChrisNorstrom 14y agoWow. Under the disguise of a pseudo-charity, Craigslist just revealed it's true intentions. They foolishly just opened themselves up to a lot of hate and possibly gave people a huge reason to try out competitors. This may be the beginning of the end of Craigslist's Empire. This is usually how it starts, users being held hostage, increased control, and decreased satisfaction with the service with no way out due to network effects. We all believed in Craigslist and this is our reward? WE built up Craigslist to be what it is and now we're held hostage for it? I feel like a fool, why do we keep falling for this? Help the little grow until he becomes king and screws us all.
- ralfn 14y agoThats a little dramatic. CL isnt popular here in Holland, but i was under the impression, it was ebay meets dating, using a 200 byte php forum file, that looked so old, you would just assume encodimg errors. Why are you getting your panties in a twist? What import role does this site play in your life or that of others?
- dbecker 14y agothe "ebay meets dating" impression is not correct. Craigslist is closer to an "Online Classified Ads" which is popular for posting jobs, apartment rentals, cars, sporting equipment, musical instruments, and pretty much everything else you might post in a classified ad. I'm told it is one of the 100 most popular sites on the internet (and one of the 50 most popular in the US). One of the reasons people feel strongly about it the platform nature. If you don't like the Craigslist interface for finding apartments, you don't have much choice. That is where everyone lists their apartments. Similarly, it is the first place everyone lists apartments because it is widely known that this is where users check. For that reason, it's been hard for competitors to get any traction... even when the competitor has better technology.
- ralfn 14y agoAlright. That sounds very anti competitive. And if they truly have a monopoly likely illegal as well. I really wish, we had proper laws to deal with all these vendor lockin tricks. Its as if the free market, without proper regulation just ends up promoting innovation in loopholes that give an unfair advantage. Everyone wants to be a cable company these days, and be selling access to customers. Instead of contributing something of actual value themselves, they just want to tax others when they do. Hijack the customer, and be the middle man. They all essentially implement the same bussiness model as the mob.
- jordanthoms 14y agoWow craigslist, way to be evil.
- learc83 14y agoThe judge in the Righthaven (copyright troll) case ruled they didn't have standing to sue, specifically because they didn't have an exclusive license. I guess this is a response to that. I still don't think most craigslist posts are copyrightable though. I think the only real long term solution is for craigslist to build and charge for an API, because I really don't think their copyright claims will hold up in court if someone with enough money to handle the legal battle shows up one day.
- chrisacky 14y agoAsk AirBnB: Going to change your integration now? Since AirBnB has tight Craigslist integration, allowing the user to post their listing after they have posted on AirBnB, this sounds like a total paradoxical situation (for lack of a better word). AirBnB kind of set up a listing acting a "proxy", but the owner of the listing hits the final "confirm" to post. Take a look here for example of the integration. http://andrewchen.co/2012/04/27/how-to-be-a-growth-hacker-an-airbnbcraigslist-case-study/ http://andrewchen.co/2012/04/27/how-to-be-a-growth-hacker-an...
- wmeredith 14y agoI'm wondering the same thing for the excellent classifieds app on iOS: Yardsale.
- chainedtodesk 14y agoHow much does Yardsale rely on Craigslist to stay alive? I posted a few items on Yardsale but got empty, flaky replies from Craigslist and still had the "crazy inbox" problem. Using this as a jumping off point to divorce from Craigslist, it would be good for Yardsale to differentiate itself with quality of buyers and manageability of enquiries rather than act as just a portal with all of the same problems and no real benefits.
- esbwhat 14y agoWhy don't they just add a damn map mode already? I get it, they don't want to change "the secret formula", so make craigslistmapper.com as an extension of craigslist. Everyone who doesn't want to deal with mapping can stay at craigslist.
- teflonhook 14y agoHow does that work? Are Craigslist going to come after you if you post your ad somewhere else now?
- teflonhook 14y agoHACKER NEWS OBJECTIVE OF 2012: KILL CRAIGSLIST.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- dedward 14y agoSeems to me that would only apply to the specific instance of content you posted on CL. If you create another post somewhere else, just make it different - it's not a work derived from that content.. it's derived from facts that you already know. You could post different content on another site all you like.. but nobody can take CL's content and use it.
- jonknee 14y agoThis means in some areas you now get the pleasure of paying Cragslist to grant them an exclusive license to your content. That's rich
- PaulMcCartney 14y agoAww shoot! Now I can't repaste my posting to.....wait....where?
- chayesfss 14y agoIt's no wonder, more people try to take craigslist data and push it in their own site while serving ads it's crazy. Yes, when I post an ad on craigslist I want that ad to be on craigslist, don't have a problem with that at all.
- gfaigpodsfisfp 14y agoWhy all the hate towards Craigslist when HN is the same way? Try to delete your account. Better yet, ask PG if he will. Nope. All yer data r belong to them. Pot, meet kettle.
- colanderman 14y agonon-revocable license != exclusive license
- Karunamon 14y agoWhat data does HN keep on you? Also I fully agree with non-revocable licenses for discussion forums. Having all of someone's postings disappear because they leave in huff is damaging to the site.
- crazygringo 14y agoI'm always fascinated when companies make that one decision which seems to lead to their downfall -- and everyone seems to be able to see it, except the company itself. I think this is a great thing -- if Craigslist can get enough bad press from this, then maybe a movement for "free and copyable" classifieds listings can take place, and there can be competition in the space again.
- briandear 14y agoDoes the chick down the street selling her old couch really care about exclusive rights or not? Not anymore than I care about the lubricant used on the subway wheels. I just want to get there cheaply and quickly and that chick just wants to sell her couch. The HN community is a very tiny subset of the population and our views often have little corespondence to those of muggles.
- archangel_one 14y agoShe doesn't think she does, but if she lists that couch on ebay as well she is technically in breach of craigslist's terms of service, and if they decide to enforce it then she is going to be forced to care. Not that I expect them to actually try to enforce it in that way, of course.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- smspence 14y ago"...if she lists that couch on ebay as well she is technically in breach of craigslist's terms of service." No, I do not think that has anything to do with the new craiglist terms of service. The new terms of service just prevents other people from copying the content of the craigslist ad. So, no the hypothetical woman selling the couch would not be affected by the new terms in any way.
- CodeCube 14y ago
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- duked 14y agoHonestly I have no stake in this, but I'm happy CL is doing that change. 3TAP and Padmapper and just trying to build a "buisness" sucking up posts from CL and tried to find doggy way around it. CL don't want their post used somehwere else, no fancy UI it's their right and it's now becoming their clear LEGAL right. I have zero sympathy for padmapper I actually think their buisness practices are disgusting (CL offered them a licence they just dind't want to pay).
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- prodigal_erik 14y agoCraigslist offered a useless mobile-only license that wouldn't have permitted padmapper to remain on the web. And forbidding landlords from pasting their own ad into any other site is shockingly anticompetitive.
- flinty 14y agoCL offered them a mobile license and Padmapper is primarily a web only application. Besides this trying to search for an apartment on mobile would be incredibly tedious. And this is likely why CL is willing to offer a mobile license.
- Spoom 14y agoIs this legally enough for Craigslist? Wouldn't they need a full copyright assignment in order to pursue copyright infringement claims?
- sadga 14y agoYeah, it seems like weird wording, asking for confirmation that they can sue, without establishing the basis.
- paulsutter 14y agoThis decision is the early sign that Craigslist is a dying company. It won't have a big direct impact: users won't notice and the PR impact won't go beyond entrepreneur circles. But it shows their confidence is suffering and they're starting to focus on defensive measures - even defensive measure that go against their original values. Its not a sign of impending doom, just a sign that a long decline is underway.
- keiferski 14y agoHow could Craigslist possibly enforce this? Are they going to look for every single ad on every single classifieds website to ensure that it's not exactly the same? Unless someone like PadMapper is scraping data, it seems impossible to enforce.
- marquis 14y agoBefore this news, I was playing with the idea of a crowd-sourced scraper which would avoid Craigslist being able to ban particular IP addresses: for example a javascript scraper that the end-user runs for the few moments they are on a particular viewing site. Now that this has been passed even this idea would seem to fail. I believe that Craigslist is an immense, rich resource where the inertia of it's community to move en-masse to another service means it highly unlikely that another site will take over in the near or near-far future. I am saddened that Craigslist can't simply provide (paid or whatever) API access to their data and encourage a healthy sub-ecosystem.
- tomc1985 14y agoDear everybody, please stop trying to kill Craigslist. Just leave it alone. Craigslist is fine and good at what it does, and some of us don't want your fancy buzzword-friendly cloud app replacing it. Some of us just want listings. I wish the padmapper dude would grow up (dude's on a quest like Don Quijote) and I wish people would stop salivating over the possibility of Craigslist's corpse. Find something else. We'll see if this provision has any teeth when users repost their listings elsewhere. It seems added to make padmapper's life more difficult, and since the dude behind that site has been nothing but a whiny little biyotch, I'm all for it.
- alan_cx 14y agoUm, dont most people just click OK, Accept or whatever, with out ever reading on? Cant see the vast majority giving a toss. How many stories have there been about ebay, paypal, facebook, etc, and none of those sites seem to be losing loads of users, if any. I mean, I even had a facebook "friend" forward a circular about the evils of facebook, saying "we" should all be up in arms. I asked her if she was going to close her FB account. Yeah, you all know the answer.
- Evbn 14y agoThis seems basically the same as the FSF's copyright assignment practice for GPL products, or Apache Foundation's practice, for basically the same goals.
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- vtry 14y agoThis is no different than say cable tv franchise monopolies.
- MartinCron 14y agoOne thing that never comes up in these discussions is community moderation. Craigslist relies on the community to flag off content that's inappropriate (spam, overpost, whatever). I wonder of the Craigslist folks are looking at alternative interfaces as ways people will get the good stuff (real listings) without having to do the work of wading through and flagging off the bad stuff.
- malandrew 14y agoMost people forget this, but you can put whatever you want in the ToS. Just because they put this in the Terms of Use, doesn't mean it will stand up in a court of law.