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Even worse, our housing policy is corrosive to the fundamental social contract. When I was young, I was taught that if you worked hard and kept your head down,

Even worse, our housing policy is corrosive to the fundamental social contract. When I was young, I was taught that if you worked hard and kept your head down, you could have a comfortable life. You may not be Bill Gates, but you could have a successful middle class existence. Our housing policies have broken this social contract. Many younger people cannot afford to live in high opportunity but high priced cities. Those that can, often only do so because of help from family. [1] NIMBYs dominate both sides of the political spectrum, especially among older people. It will take younger people getting involved in the YIMBY movement to effect change. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213546

tptacek 2y ago
I think YIMBYs really like to cast NIMBYs as their evil adversaries, but the problem is systemic. Any policy change, be it "what can be built on this lot", or "what social services do we fund", or, in particular for my muni, "how do we deal with leaf collection in Autumn" will generate three cohorts of people: (i) People who don't like the change (ii) People who don't care about the change (most people) (iii) People who do like the change People who don't like the change (i), regardless of the amplitude of their dislike, will turn out and give public comment and put up yard signs. People who like the change (iii) will turn out and give public comment only if they are weirdos like me, with off-the-charts amplitude for their feelings. The net result is that the only public opinion that is legible to staff and electeds is opposite. Again: regardless of what the change is.
- floodfx 2y ago
  Insightful! Makes me think a bit about how negative content engages more people. Is this the same with people who don't like change? Not liking change activates people more than people who do like change?
  - do_not_redeem 2y ago
    Sounds like loss aversion to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
- BenFranklin100 2y ago
  I don’t know what YIMBYs like to cast people who oppose housing. I am pointing out an effect of the lack of new housing. I reccommend you read, if you haven’t already, Katherine Einstein’s book ‘Neighborhood Defenders.’ It accurately describes the housing politics in Massachusetts. Any housing analysis is incomplete without taking into the geographical effect: The only people who care strongly one way or the other about new homes are the people who live near the proposed construction. Almost invariably, people who live nearby are against the change. Those who live far away are actually fine with new construction, at least in the abstract. The very same people who show up to protest nearby construction are also typically fine with housing on other side of the city. People just don’t want new housing in their neighborhood. This has a practical lesson: control of housing policy, particularly, density, must be ripped from local city councils, where it now rests. Local city councils are beholden to their NIMBY homeowners, as homeowners are the only one who typically vote in city elections. The states thus need to reclaim their legal right to set housing a policy, a right they have ceded to municipalities.
- freen 2y ago
  The difference here is whether or not folks are actually pro-social. Do you care about other people’s wellbeing or not? Most folks who are “against” things are against them because they perceive change as “bad for them”, and perhaps “good for people I dislike for historical and tribal reasons” Civilization is a an endless series of Tradeoffs. Compromises. Loss of something in the short term in exchange for something better in the long term. If you aren’t willing to suffer in any meaningful way for your fellow human, eventually the entire bargain falls apart.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    No! This is more about economies of attention, and about cognitive availability, than it is about deontology --- ethics are a trap here.
    - I-M-S 2y ago
      Both can be true at the same time.
- enaaem 2y ago
  I am from the (possibly naive) believe that beauty will change the world. So if you want to present any changes, it has to be beautiful. Ethical and logical arguments only work if people already desire your vision and are only used to rationalise their emotions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfonhlM6I7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfonhlM6I7w
jldl805 2y ago
Speak for yourself. I am 38, live in one of the top fastest growing cities in America for like 5 years running now (with a booming housing market), and own my own house outright as a result of my hard work. Just because someone taught you something doesn't make it so. And even then, it might be true but your own choices (and failures) may be the reason you have not met your goals - rather than "housing policy". Try on some personal accountability for size - it'll probably help you achieve those unachievable milestones you are yearning for, also.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I've read this a couple times and still don't see what it has to do with the comment that it responds to.
  - jldl805 2y ago
    It's a counterpoint to : "Our housing policies have broken this social contract. Many younger people cannot afford to live in high opportunity but high priced cities. Those that can, often only do so because of help from family"
    - BenFranklin100 2y ago
      No, your post was an emotional reaction based on some who-knows-what chip on your shoulder that propelled you to launch a strawman attacking an anonymous commentator. You know nothing of my personal situation. Nor, it seems, do you know much about the personal situations of younger people of modest backgrounds and modest means who simply want to live in the high priced city they were raised. I suggest more emotional reflection.
      - jldl805 2y ago
        It wasn't a strawman, it's a direct reply and I'm zero percent emotional. What are you talking about?
    - mixmastamyk 2y ago
rufus_foreman 2y ago
>> I was taught that if you worked hard and kept your head down, you could have a comfortable life I didn't even work that hard and I have a comfortable life. I learned to code, and that was it. Your mileage may vary. If you move to one of the most expensive cities in the world, one of the things you can do is complain that it is really expensive to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. You can do that. I don't recommend it, but it is one of the things that you can do. The number of YIMBYs who own property is approximately zero. "Yes, I would prefer that you make my life worse", said no property owner ever. I am a bad person. I want my life to be better, not worse.

tptacek 2y ago

I think YIMBYs really like to cast NIMBYs as their evil adversaries, but the problem is systemic. Any policy change, be it "what can be built on this lot", or "what social services do we fund", or, in particular for my muni, "how do we deal with leaf collection in Autumn" will generate three cohorts of people: (i) People who don't like the change (ii) People who don't care about the change (most people) (iii) People who do like the change People who don't like the change (i), regardless of the amplitude of their dislike, will turn out and give public comment and put up yard signs. People who like the change (iii) will turn out and give public comment only if they are weirdos like me, with off-the-charts amplitude for their feelings. The net result is that the only public opinion that is legible to staff and electeds is opposite. Again: regardless of what the change is.

floodfx 2y ago
Insightful! Makes me think a bit about how negative content engages more people. Is this the same with people who don't like change? Not liking change activates people more than people who do like change?
- do_not_redeem 2y ago
  Sounds like loss aversion to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
BenFranklin100 2y ago
I don’t know what YIMBYs like to cast people who oppose housing. I am pointing out an effect of the lack of new housing. I reccommend you read, if you haven’t already, Katherine Einstein’s book ‘Neighborhood Defenders.’ It accurately describes the housing politics in Massachusetts. Any housing analysis is incomplete without taking into the geographical effect: The only people who care strongly one way or the other about new homes are the people who live near the proposed construction. Almost invariably, people who live nearby are against the change. Those who live far away are actually fine with new construction, at least in the abstract. The very same people who show up to protest nearby construction are also typically fine with housing on other side of the city. People just don’t want new housing in their neighborhood. This has a practical lesson: control of housing policy, particularly, density, must be ripped from local city councils, where it now rests. Local city councils are beholden to their NIMBY homeowners, as homeowners are the only one who typically vote in city elections. The states thus need to reclaim their legal right to set housing a policy, a right they have ceded to municipalities.
freen 2y ago
The difference here is whether or not folks are actually pro-social. Do you care about other people’s wellbeing or not? Most folks who are “against” things are against them because they perceive change as “bad for them”, and perhaps “good for people I dislike for historical and tribal reasons” Civilization is a an endless series of Tradeoffs. Compromises. Loss of something in the short term in exchange for something better in the long term. If you aren’t willing to suffer in any meaningful way for your fellow human, eventually the entire bargain falls apart.
- tptacek 2y ago
  No! This is more about economies of attention, and about cognitive availability, than it is about deontology --- ethics are a trap here.
  - I-M-S 2y ago
    Both can be true at the same time.
enaaem 2y ago
I am from the (possibly naive) believe that beauty will change the world. So if you want to present any changes, it has to be beautiful. Ethical and logical arguments only work if people already desire your vision and are only used to rationalise their emotions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfonhlM6I7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfonhlM6I7w

jldl805 2y ago

Speak for yourself. I am 38, live in one of the top fastest growing cities in America for like 5 years running now (with a booming housing market), and own my own house outright as a result of my hard work. Just because someone taught you something doesn't make it so. And even then, it might be true but your own choices (and failures) may be the reason you have not met your goals - rather than "housing policy". Try on some personal accountability for size - it'll probably help you achieve those unachievable milestones you are yearning for, also.

tptacek 2y ago
I've read this a couple times and still don't see what it has to do with the comment that it responds to.
- jldl805 2y ago
  It's a counterpoint to : "Our housing policies have broken this social contract. Many younger people cannot afford to live in high opportunity but high priced cities. Those that can, often only do so because of help from family"
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
    No, your post was an emotional reaction based on some who-knows-what chip on your shoulder that propelled you to launch a strawman attacking an anonymous commentator. You know nothing of my personal situation. Nor, it seems, do you know much about the personal situations of younger people of modest backgrounds and modest means who simply want to live in the high priced city they were raised. I suggest more emotional reflection.
    - jldl805 2y ago
      It wasn't a strawman, it's a direct reply and I'm zero percent emotional. What are you talking about?
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago

rufus_foreman 2y ago

>> I was taught that if you worked hard and kept your head down, you could have a comfortable life I didn't even work that hard and I have a comfortable life. I learned to code, and that was it. Your mileage may vary. If you move to one of the most expensive cities in the world, one of the things you can do is complain that it is really expensive to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. You can do that. I don't recommend it, but it is one of the things that you can do. The number of YIMBYs who own property is approximately zero. "Yes, I would prefer that you make my life worse", said no property owner ever. I am a bad person. I want my life to be better, not worse.