4 ms·

Under what theory of psychology are you operating? This is along the same lines as the theory that punishment is an effective deterrent of crime, which we know

Under what theory of psychology are you operating? This is along the same lines as the theory that punishment is an effective deterrent of crime, which we know isn’t true from experience.

slibhb 2y ago
While I think that resigning is stupid here, asserting that "punishment doesn't deter crime" is just absurd. It does!
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago
  > While I think that resigning is stupid here, asserting that "punishment doesn't deter crime" is just absurd. It does! Punishment does not deter crime. The threat of punishment does to a degree. IOW, most people will be unaware of a person being sent to prison for years until and unless they have committed a similar offense. But everyone is aware of repercussions possible should they violate known criminal laws.
  - TZubiri 2y ago
    My grandmother used to say that arguing about an idea is the ultimate concession. If the topic becomes questioning century old traditions like jails, taxes, or war, like we're about to revolutionaze humankind, I'm out.
- mirashii 2y ago
  The overwhelming majority of evidence suggests otherwise. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-and-punishment/201804/why-punishment-doesnt-reduce-crime https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-and-punishment... https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2020/07/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2020/07/do-harsher-pun... https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/economics/do-harsh-punishments-deter-crime-research-sheds-light-question https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/economics/do-harsh-punishmen...
  - TZubiri 2y ago
    When I was younger I used to be much more influentiable, now you just can't change my mind, I made it up for good thank you. And it pays off in cases like this, I'll be talking with someone about a topic like the seriousness of a vulnerability, they disagree, that's fine no need to convince me, you won't. And then it turns out they're left-leaning abolitionists who are against the idea of jails. Many such cases, on the other hand I'll be disagreeing with someone on business strategy, and two lines later they reveal that they think taxation is theft. I can rest easy and ignore them.
    - otterley 2y ago
      > now you just can't change my mind, I made it up for good thank you Respectfully, that’s not a very “hacker” way of seeing the world. Hackers learn from their mistakes and adapt. (Just like this software company is doing.)
TZubiri 2y ago
"jails don't work and we shouldn't have jails" Got it
- otterley 2y ago
  I think you’re misunderstanding my point. The reality is more complicated than that. There are some people who will be discouraged from committing a crime over threat of punishment. But many will not. Many people behave well because they’re just moral people, and others won’t because they’re just selfish and antisocial. Still others commit crimes out of desperation despite the risks. If the threat of imprisonment were effective, there would be no crime, because we already have prisons and penalties of punishment. But since we do have crime, it logically follows that it’s not effective. The other point here is that threat of punishment is not particularly effective as a management strategy in the private sector. It doesn’t incentivize behavior in the manner you might believe. Mostly it makes your reports dislike you and it makes them less productive. It’s a thing you learn pretty quickly as a manager. There’s a model of a person being a rational thinker, but in reality, people aren’t always rational. (Hell, adolescents are biologically programmed not to be rational and to stress test the limits of nature and society.) You find success in making less-than-rational people work together in harmony and achieve positive outcomes.

Under what theory of psychology are you operating? This is along the same lines as the theory that punishment is an effective deterrent of crime, which we know isn’t true from experience.

slibhb 2y ago

While I think that resigning is stupid here, asserting that "punishment doesn't deter crime" is just absurd. It does!

AdieuToLogic 2y ago
> While I think that resigning is stupid here, asserting that "punishment doesn't deter crime" is just absurd. It does! Punishment does not deter crime. The threat of punishment does to a degree. IOW, most people will be unaware of a person being sent to prison for years until and unless they have committed a similar offense. But everyone is aware of repercussions possible should they violate known criminal laws.
- TZubiri 2y ago
  My grandmother used to say that arguing about an idea is the ultimate concession. If the topic becomes questioning century old traditions like jails, taxes, or war, like we're about to revolutionaze humankind, I'm out.
mirashii 2y ago
The overwhelming majority of evidence suggests otherwise. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-and-punishment/201804/why-punishment-doesnt-reduce-crime https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-and-punishment... https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2020/07/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2020/07/do-harsher-pun... https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/economics/do-harsh-punishments-deter-crime-research-sheds-light-question https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/economics/do-harsh-punishmen...
- TZubiri 2y ago
  When I was younger I used to be much more influentiable, now you just can't change my mind, I made it up for good thank you. And it pays off in cases like this, I'll be talking with someone about a topic like the seriousness of a vulnerability, they disagree, that's fine no need to convince me, you won't. And then it turns out they're left-leaning abolitionists who are against the idea of jails. Many such cases, on the other hand I'll be disagreeing with someone on business strategy, and two lines later they reveal that they think taxation is theft. I can rest easy and ignore them.
  - otterley 2y ago
    > now you just can't change my mind, I made it up for good thank you Respectfully, that’s not a very “hacker” way of seeing the world. Hackers learn from their mistakes and adapt. (Just like this software company is doing.)

TZubiri 2y ago

"jails don't work and we shouldn't have jails" Got it

otterley 2y ago
I think you’re misunderstanding my point. The reality is more complicated than that. There are some people who will be discouraged from committing a crime over threat of punishment. But many will not. Many people behave well because they’re just moral people, and others won’t because they’re just selfish and antisocial. Still others commit crimes out of desperation despite the risks. If the threat of imprisonment were effective, there would be no crime, because we already have prisons and penalties of punishment. But since we do have crime, it logically follows that it’s not effective. The other point here is that threat of punishment is not particularly effective as a management strategy in the private sector. It doesn’t incentivize behavior in the manner you might believe. Mostly it makes your reports dislike you and it makes them less productive. It’s a thing you learn pretty quickly as a manager. There’s a model of a person being a rational thinker, but in reality, people aren’t always rational. (Hell, adolescents are biologically programmed not to be rational and to stress test the limits of nature and society.) You find success in making less-than-rational people work together in harmony and achieve positive outcomes.