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Which fields? I feel like software has been an outlier here for a decade; the only place where traditional economic intuitions still apply (semi-smart people c

Which fields? I feel like software has been an outlier here for a decade; the only place where traditional economic intuitions still apply (semi-smart people can work hard, learn a technical skill, find a job in their field, pay off their loans, make more than their parents, afford a house, and have a comfortable personal life and relatively fulfilling work life) Everything I've heard from the rest of the economy is that this model is dead

simonbarker87 2y ago
Fair question, it’s a mix: IT admin, manufacturing project manager, primary school teacher, tree surgeon, mortgage advisor, doctor, something in finance, secondary school teacher, plumber, software developer, power electronics engineer, charity sector project lead So a real mix
- Aromasin 2y ago
  Okay, so a lot of ~£40k a year salaries (outside of medicine and finance) to afford a £400k house when your parents might have had a £20k salary to afford an £80k house? There's a real disparity when you consider what they did too. If your parents are anything like mine, they were in the pub 4 days a week, drinking and eating with friends. I can managed that just a few times a month. Wealth compared to income from my experience is significantly lower by .lost metrics.
  - directevolve 2y ago
    This paper has an excellent, readable breakdown of how compensation and productivity has changed since the 1970s.
    - RugnirViking 2y ago
      Which paper?
- the_real_cher 2y ago
  Maybe you have an exceptional friend group because .. outside of your anecdata .. the statistically average salaries for many of those professions over large sample sets is below the median in the us and they are definitely not seeing their purchasing power increasing yearly
  - derektank 2y ago
    >they are definitely not seeing their purchasing power increasing yearly In the US? Real Disposable Personal Income has been growing very consistently over time [1]. The rate of growth did stagnate between 2000 and 2013 but the trend has been remarkably consistent. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96
    - raziel2p 2y ago
      the per capita version of your graph: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 it claims that the average person has 50k usd in disposable yearly income - there's no way that's after housing and other non optional expenses have been accounted for. using this measurement, if wages go up 5% but rent goes up 50%, it would still look as if people have more money to spend than before.
      - fulafel 2y ago
        If you consider most of this going to rich people it's more understandable. Per capita doesn't try to describe the average person.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - the_real_cher 2y ago
      very minimally and not in proportion to their output. the rich are taking The Lion's share of productivity growth https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/#:~:text=Wage%20trends%20of%20the%20last%20three%20decades&text=Slow%20and%20unequal%20wage%20growth,received%20by%20a%20typical%20worker. https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/#:~...
giantg2 2y ago
"the only place where traditional economic intuitions still apply" Which economy? In the US, healthcare, public schools in some states, and B2B sales come to mind as decent jobs. But I agree with the general sentiment - there do not seem to be great choices that support a nice life. Quite a few of my friend have to work multiple jobs or double shifts to make it work.
- Retric 2y ago
  Most healthcare jobs don’t pay particularly well. The inefficiency is going to pay the salaries of medical transcriptionists, people handling billing inside insurance and in healthcare facilities etc. Things that aren’t improving outcomes are ultimately why healthcare is expensive in the US. Just for comparison the minimum wage nationwide in Feb 1, 1968 was 1.60$/hour that’s ~14.61$/hour when adjusted for inflation. Median household income in 1968 was 8,600$ or ~$78,504.90 inflation adjusted and that was mostly single income. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1969/demo/p60-66.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1969/demo/p60-66... https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
  - giantg2 2y ago
    I wasn't really talking about the billing, but more about doctors, nurses, medical manufacturing, etc.
    - Retric 2y ago
      That’s the higher end of medicine, orderlies are making 16$/h. People on ambulances are often making 17$/h. Some nurses make ok money, but starting salary for a school nurse is 20$/h and median school nurse is making 30$/h... Granted I understand what you mean, but it’s kind of like saying managers make good money while ignoring all the shift managers at fast food joints.
      - numba888 2y ago
        Can we summarize it that 'easy' or 'low skilled' jobs aren't payed better today comparing with the past? Not surprising taking into account demand and population. More worrying is that high-skilled jobs aren't rewording. As for equality.. welcome to USSR, you see how it ended. Now only a few Arabs states have greater inequality.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kenjackson 2y ago
It also depends on who your parents are. My parents at my age were poor working class. We had a much smaller house (800 sq ft), used cheap cars, cheaper clothing, etc... My dad spent a lot of time fixing our cars (I don't even try), fixing plumbing issues, and we rarely ate out (and never DoorDash'ed!). I was lucky to get some quarters to go to the local arcade to play Pac Man. My point -- even being slightly lower middle class now would feel like a good jump over my parents. That's just pointing out that comparisons to parental income is very relative.
- alternatex 2y ago
  800 sq ft is a small house in some part of the world?
  - porridgeraisin 2y ago
    Depends on the occupancy. For a 2BHK I would say 800 is small. For a 1BHK, it is good.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
Certain industries now are at a point where they are paid a ton. Jobs like the trades, piloting boats or planes, that sort of thing. Your schedule might look a bit irregular, but the path to say a quarter a million a year is far more realistic today for someone who is a pilot vs someone who takes a white collar job. That phenomenon was not always apparent. Growing up, I was told specifically to avoid those sorts of jobs and go for white collar, informed by a generation where those sorts of jobs were a lot more dangerous and less compensated. In some companies over the last century we went from say building floors of modestly paid draftsmen and a few highly paid white collar classes managing them to floors of modestly paid white collar people fiddling with excel and a few highly paid certified engineers doing the actual technical work. The dynamic has changed.

simonbarker87 2y ago

Fair question, it’s a mix: IT admin, manufacturing project manager, primary school teacher, tree surgeon, mortgage advisor, doctor, something in finance, secondary school teacher, plumber, software developer, power electronics engineer, charity sector project lead So a real mix

Aromasin 2y ago
Okay, so a lot of ~£40k a year salaries (outside of medicine and finance) to afford a £400k house when your parents might have had a £20k salary to afford an £80k house? There's a real disparity when you consider what they did too. If your parents are anything like mine, they were in the pub 4 days a week, drinking and eating with friends. I can managed that just a few times a month. Wealth compared to income from my experience is significantly lower by .lost metrics.
- directevolve 2y ago
  This paper has an excellent, readable breakdown of how compensation and productivity has changed since the 1970s.
  - RugnirViking 2y ago
    Which paper?
the_real_cher 2y ago
Maybe you have an exceptional friend group because .. outside of your anecdata .. the statistically average salaries for many of those professions over large sample sets is below the median in the us and they are definitely not seeing their purchasing power increasing yearly
- derektank 2y ago
  >they are definitely not seeing their purchasing power increasing yearly In the US? Real Disposable Personal Income has been growing very consistently over time [1]. The rate of growth did stagnate between 2000 and 2013 but the trend has been remarkably consistent. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96
  - raziel2p 2y ago
    the per capita version of your graph: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A229RX0 it claims that the average person has 50k usd in disposable yearly income - there's no way that's after housing and other non optional expenses have been accounted for. using this measurement, if wages go up 5% but rent goes up 50%, it would still look as if people have more money to spend than before.
    - fulafel 2y ago
      If you consider most of this going to rich people it's more understandable. Per capita doesn't try to describe the average person.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_real_cher 2y ago
    very minimally and not in proportion to their output. the rich are taking The Lion's share of productivity growth https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/#:~:text=Wage%20trends%20of%20the%20last%20three%20decades&text=Slow%20and%20unequal%20wage%20growth,received%20by%20a%20typical%20worker. https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/#:~...

giantg2 2y ago

"the only place where traditional economic intuitions still apply" Which economy? In the US, healthcare, public schools in some states, and B2B sales come to mind as decent jobs. But I agree with the general sentiment - there do not seem to be great choices that support a nice life. Quite a few of my friend have to work multiple jobs or double shifts to make it work.

Retric 2y ago
Most healthcare jobs don’t pay particularly well. The inefficiency is going to pay the salaries of medical transcriptionists, people handling billing inside insurance and in healthcare facilities etc. Things that aren’t improving outcomes are ultimately why healthcare is expensive in the US. Just for comparison the minimum wage nationwide in Feb 1, 1968 was 1.60$/hour that’s ~14.61$/hour when adjusted for inflation. Median household income in 1968 was 8,600$ or ~$78,504.90 inflation adjusted and that was mostly single income. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1969/demo/p60-66.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1969/demo/p60-66... https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
- giantg2 2y ago
  I wasn't really talking about the billing, but more about doctors, nurses, medical manufacturing, etc.
  - Retric 2y ago
    That’s the higher end of medicine, orderlies are making 16$/h. People on ambulances are often making 17$/h. Some nurses make ok money, but starting salary for a school nurse is 20$/h and median school nurse is making 30$/h... Granted I understand what you mean, but it’s kind of like saying managers make good money while ignoring all the shift managers at fast food joints.
    - numba888 2y ago
      Can we summarize it that 'easy' or 'low skilled' jobs aren't payed better today comparing with the past? Not surprising taking into account demand and population. More worrying is that high-skilled jobs aren't rewording. As for equality.. welcome to USSR, you see how it ended. Now only a few Arabs states have greater inequality.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kenjackson 2y ago

It also depends on who your parents are. My parents at my age were poor working class. We had a much smaller house (800 sq ft), used cheap cars, cheaper clothing, etc... My dad spent a lot of time fixing our cars (I don't even try), fixing plumbing issues, and we rarely ate out (and never DoorDash'ed!). I was lucky to get some quarters to go to the local arcade to play Pac Man. My point -- even being slightly lower middle class now would feel like a good jump over my parents. That's just pointing out that comparisons to parental income is very relative.

alternatex 2y ago
800 sq ft is a small house in some part of the world?
- porridgeraisin 2y ago
  Depends on the occupancy. For a 2BHK I would say 800 is small. For a 1BHK, it is good.

kjkjadksj 2y ago

Certain industries now are at a point where they are paid a ton. Jobs like the trades, piloting boats or planes, that sort of thing. Your schedule might look a bit irregular, but the path to say a quarter a million a year is far more realistic today for someone who is a pilot vs someone who takes a white collar job. That phenomenon was not always apparent. Growing up, I was told specifically to avoid those sorts of jobs and go for white collar, informed by a generation where those sorts of jobs were a lot more dangerous and less compensated. In some companies over the last century we went from say building floors of modestly paid draftsmen and a few highly paid white collar classes managing them to floors of modestly paid white collar people fiddling with excel and a few highly paid certified engineers doing the actual technical work. The dynamic has changed.