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What do you mean with basically accepted that demand? Give me a source and I will stand corrected. I have stayed away from discussing this war for a long time s

What do you mean with basically accepted that demand? Give me a source and I will stand corrected. I have stayed away from discussing this war for a long time since the outcome is pretty predictable given my point of view, so I forgot a lot of the details from when I carefully researched the topic. But as far as I remember, there was not hint of willingness to accommodate Russian demands.

kubb 2y ago
The demand is met by Ukraine not being in NATO. You can see the list of NATO members here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO If Ukraine joined NATO - that would be disregarding Russian demands. Russia just didn't want Ukraine to join because they wanted to annex the eastern part of it. Having it in NATO would mean that they couldn't do that. Of course they're opposed to Ukraine joining even after that annexation - they'll take more land if they can get it. They don't care about human lives, will regroup, recover, and attack again.
- danbruc 2y ago
  With all due respect, that is a really stupid argument. The official NATO position was that Ukraine will eventually become a NATO member, Bucharest summit 2008. That position remained unchanged, at least until the beginning of the Russian invasion. The Russian demand was and probably is, that Ukraine will not become a NATO member in the future, not that it is not a NATO member right now. To the best of my knowledge, NATO has never stated that it will not bar Ukraine from joining NATO indefinitely or something even remotely similar. And while you think Russia just wanted the territory, I think Russia just does not want US troops or weapons at their borders, just as the USA would probably not enjoy Chinese troops or weapons in Mexico. Or how they did not like Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba. Or how they in 2022 threatened consequences to Solomon Islands - 10,000 km from US borders - if they allowed China to establish a military base.
  - kubb 2y ago
    There are already 6 NATO countries on the border with Russia, I'm shocked that you don't know this. If Ukraine became a member before 2014, we wouldn't have had this horrible war, but Russia was controlling Ukraine's political class, and making threats to NATO countries against them joining. Especially against Germany who was reliant on Russian gas imports. I can see that you're determined to believe that Russia is just defending itself here by attacking preemptively, and you will probably support any action by them, including a full annexation, and attribute it to their reasonable intentions. No need to pretend that you have respect for me... But in reality what's happening is that you're dismissing information that doesn't fit in your worldview, by disparaging the person who presents them to you.
    - danbruc 2y ago
      Was Russia happy about those countries joining NATO or did it protest? Were the relationships between the East and the West better so that this was of less concern? Was Russia weaker and had less power to resist? I do not see how Russia living with the existing NATO neighbors would imply that Ukraine becoming another one would be of no concern. How do you know that Russia would not have attacked if Ukraine would have tried to join earlier? Why would Russia not have intervened in 2008 as it did in Georgia? I am not determined to believe anything, I want to correctly understand the world and know the truth. I can give you countless examples over several decades where Russia protest NATO expansion and threatened consequences. Can you give me any sources where Russia was expressing expansionist considerations? And before you say On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians, make sure you actually read it.
      - kubb 2y ago
        Russia wasn't happy, because it wanted to keep the option to militarily expand in all of these countries. I think we agree here. > I do not see how Russia living with the existing NATO neighbors would imply that Ukraine becoming another one would be of no concern. The current NATO neighbors didn't present any threat to territorial integrity of Russia. The only reason Russia doesn't like them joining is that it doesn't have an option to militarily expand there anymore, something that is important to Russian leadership and people. > How do you know that Russia would not have attacked if Ukraine would have tried to join earlier? If Ukraine joined, Russia wouldn't touch it like it didn't touch any of the NATO countries. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have a Russian minority, but Russia can't support separatist movements, and intervene militarily there as easily as in Ukraine or Georgia. > I want to correctly understand the world and know the truth. In geopolitics, there's no single "truth," only perspectives backed by evidence. Every Russian is taught in school that eastern Ukraine is "rightfully" theirs, and they get a compelling story to back up this belief. Ukraine being in NATO would make it impossible for Russia to act on this claim for decades, and the claim would have weakened with time. > Why would Russia not have intervened in 2008 as it did in Georgia? Russia intervened in Georgia to support separatists, not to stop NATO accession. > Can you give me any sources where Russia was expressing expansionist considerations? https://irp.fas.org/news/2005/04/putin042505.html https://irp.fas.org/news/2005/04/putin042505.html "Tens of millions of our citizens and fellow-countrymen found themselves outside the Russian Federation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_units_which_invaded_the_territory_of_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%932022) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_units_which_in... "You don’t understand, George, Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us." https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/accepting-nato-aspirations-denazifying-20-years-putins-changing-views-ukraine https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/accepting-nato-aspira... They want the greater part "back". --- The benefit of the doubt that you give to Russia is fantastic!

kubb 2y ago

The demand is met by Ukraine not being in NATO. You can see the list of NATO members here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO If Ukraine joined NATO - that would be disregarding Russian demands. Russia just didn't want Ukraine to join because they wanted to annex the eastern part of it. Having it in NATO would mean that they couldn't do that. Of course they're opposed to Ukraine joining even after that annexation - they'll take more land if they can get it. They don't care about human lives, will regroup, recover, and attack again.

danbruc 2y ago
With all due respect, that is a really stupid argument. The official NATO position was that Ukraine will eventually become a NATO member, Bucharest summit 2008. That position remained unchanged, at least until the beginning of the Russian invasion. The Russian demand was and probably is, that Ukraine will not become a NATO member in the future, not that it is not a NATO member right now. To the best of my knowledge, NATO has never stated that it will not bar Ukraine from joining NATO indefinitely or something even remotely similar. And while you think Russia just wanted the territory, I think Russia just does not want US troops or weapons at their borders, just as the USA would probably not enjoy Chinese troops or weapons in Mexico. Or how they did not like Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba. Or how they in 2022 threatened consequences to Solomon Islands - 10,000 km from US borders - if they allowed China to establish a military base.
- kubb 2y ago
  There are already 6 NATO countries on the border with Russia, I'm shocked that you don't know this. If Ukraine became a member before 2014, we wouldn't have had this horrible war, but Russia was controlling Ukraine's political class, and making threats to NATO countries against them joining. Especially against Germany who was reliant on Russian gas imports. I can see that you're determined to believe that Russia is just defending itself here by attacking preemptively, and you will probably support any action by them, including a full annexation, and attribute it to their reasonable intentions. No need to pretend that you have respect for me... But in reality what's happening is that you're dismissing information that doesn't fit in your worldview, by disparaging the person who presents them to you.
  - danbruc 2y ago
    Was Russia happy about those countries joining NATO or did it protest? Were the relationships between the East and the West better so that this was of less concern? Was Russia weaker and had less power to resist? I do not see how Russia living with the existing NATO neighbors would imply that Ukraine becoming another one would be of no concern. How do you know that Russia would not have attacked if Ukraine would have tried to join earlier? Why would Russia not have intervened in 2008 as it did in Georgia? I am not determined to believe anything, I want to correctly understand the world and know the truth. I can give you countless examples over several decades where Russia protest NATO expansion and threatened consequences. Can you give me any sources where Russia was expressing expansionist considerations? And before you say On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians, make sure you actually read it.
    - kubb 2y ago
      Russia wasn't happy, because it wanted to keep the option to militarily expand in all of these countries. I think we agree here. > I do not see how Russia living with the existing NATO neighbors would imply that Ukraine becoming another one would be of no concern. The current NATO neighbors didn't present any threat to territorial integrity of Russia. The only reason Russia doesn't like them joining is that it doesn't have an option to militarily expand there anymore, something that is important to Russian leadership and people. > How do you know that Russia would not have attacked if Ukraine would have tried to join earlier? If Ukraine joined, Russia wouldn't touch it like it didn't touch any of the NATO countries. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have a Russian minority, but Russia can't support separatist movements, and intervene militarily there as easily as in Ukraine or Georgia. > I want to correctly understand the world and know the truth. In geopolitics, there's no single "truth," only perspectives backed by evidence. Every Russian is taught in school that eastern Ukraine is "rightfully" theirs, and they get a compelling story to back up this belief. Ukraine being in NATO would make it impossible for Russia to act on this claim for decades, and the claim would have weakened with time. > Why would Russia not have intervened in 2008 as it did in Georgia? Russia intervened in Georgia to support separatists, not to stop NATO accession. > Can you give me any sources where Russia was expressing expansionist considerations? https://irp.fas.org/news/2005/04/putin042505.html https://irp.fas.org/news/2005/04/putin042505.html "Tens of millions of our citizens and fellow-countrymen found themselves outside the Russian Federation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_units_which_invaded_the_territory_of_Ukraine_(2014%E2%80%932022) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_units_which_in... "You don’t understand, George, Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us." https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/accepting-nato-aspirations-denazifying-20-years-putins-changing-views-ukraine https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/accepting-nato-aspira... They want the greater part "back". --- The benefit of the doubt that you give to Russia is fantastic!