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Do boundaries matter more than people dying? Genuine question.

Xeamek 2y ago
Depends on specific boundaries, but literally all of human history is about fighting for people's rights to hold one boundary or another
- johnisgood 2y ago
  By boundaries I am referring to the geographical ones, might not be the best term. Like, if Ukraine let Russia have specific regions and it meant millions of people not dying, would people go for it?
  - nuancebydefault 2y ago
    Probably yes, but he premise is wrong. You know P being a villain and all that.
  - Xeamek 2y ago
    So just borders? In the end, it’s the people who fight that determine if the thing they are fighting for is worth their lives. Dying for some lines on the map sounds bad, but if it were only lines on the map, then the people probably wouldn't choose to die for them, would they? Nobody wants to die, but if someone is ready to give up their life for some cause, then who are you to tell them they can't? It's the fate of Ukrainians that is at stake and its the Ukrainians that determine if changing that fate is worth the costs of their lives.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      I am not going to tell them they can't, they can do as they see fit, of course. It is a very subjective topic, however. I might save my family even if it meant the death of hundreds of people, or not, it is a moral dilemma for sure. I do not have an answer. Some people may believe "less people dying" is always favorable.
crazygringo 2y ago
It's not "boundaries". It's about living in a democracy. Is it worth dying to ensure your children live in a democracy where they have control over their future? Or is it better to allow a dictatorship like Russia to engulf your country, and your children grow up under authoritarianism? It's not boundaries as much as an invading political system you despise.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  I was referring to those specific territories Russia claimed to want.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    Russia wants all of Ukraine. They tried to invade Kyiv. So I'm talking about those specific territories -- all of Ukraine. You don't really think that giving up the territory Russia has taken already is going to stop Russia from advancing further?
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      Why did they try to invade Kyiv exactly? To take it? > You don't really think that giving up the territory Russia has taken already is going to stop Russia from advancing further? I honestly do not know. If they do, then it requires military intervention.
      - crazygringo 2y ago
        > Why did they try to invade Kyiv exactly? To take it? Yes. > If they do, then it requires military intervention. Yes. That is the military intervention that Ukraine is continuing to take against Russia currently. Does it all make sense now? Why Ukraine shouldn't just let itself be invaded, in order to avoid deaths?
        johnisgood 2y ago
louthy 2y ago
Ask the people who tried to scale the Berlin wall before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. Oh, you can't, because they're dead. Shot. Because they were on the wrong side of the boundary.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Well, that is people dying. I personally want less people dying, by whatever means necessary.
  - corinroyal 2y ago
    Fewer
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Short term, or medium term? Because short term survival means surrender, followed by the medium term getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      > getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country. Is it not just speculation? Does it have any merits? Would he do it? What makes you think that it is going to happen, that he wants to do it? Could he actually attempt to do it?
      - ben_w 2y ago
        > Is it not just speculation? Does it have any merits? Would he do it? What makes you think that it is going to happen, that he wants to do it? Could he actually attempt to do it? Having already done it three times: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War 3. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-ukrainians-occupied-areas-military https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-ukrainians...
jimbohn 2y ago
Take the chance to freshen up on eastern European history and the absolute dark footprint that russia has cast on it during the centuries. There is a reason why eastern europeans would rather die than be under russian occupation. It's not just about borders, it's about oppression, torture, destruction, and then borders again in a few years. To STILL not see what the russian world is about is truly an exercise in idiocy. Sorry, I had to answer a genuine question with a genuine statement
- johnisgood 2y ago
  > why eastern europeans would rather die than be under russian occupation. From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union. Additionally, people say (probably rightly so) that Orbán is pro-Putin. Why is it the case?
  - jimbohn 2y ago
    >From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union Assuming this is true, it's because these are soviet leftovers who had a low education, were indoctrinated from a young age, and lived during the dream phase where you were told what to do, where to live, etc. Then came the bill when everything collapsed because this didn't work. I can make everybody happy tomorrow by emptying the state coffers and institutionalizing national NEETDOM, can't promise our happiness will last long but we can try! And regardless of what they think, it was shit. Edit: about "why is Orban pro-putin?", this is a joke right?
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      > about "why is Orban pro-putin?", this is a joke right? No, genuine question, he is Eastern European. Let us go further, they claim Hungary is pro-Russian, how come?
      - jimbohn 2y ago
        No, I'd rather not spend my time on what seems to be a promising exercise in moving the goalpost. Not sure I'd classify hungary as eastern European (I was mostly referring to slavs) but sure you can find at least a pro russian guy among eastern europeans, especially dictator ones.
Sohcahtoa82 2y ago
Which is more important to you: Justice or an absence of violence? Sometimes, it's simply not possible to have both. Do you truly expect Ukraine to just roll over?
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Seems like most people who have replied to my comments want justice over saving millions of people's life. Fine by me, but the assumed and voiced moral superiority is baffling.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > Fine by me, but the assumed and voiced moral superiority is baffling. Can you genuinely not imagine being under the thumb of a dictator who sends you off to die? Elsewhere in this thread you're responding to me as if you don't even seem to accept that this can occur despite the fact that it already has.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      Zelensky did the same. Pick a side if you want. I did not.
      - Sohcahtoa82 2y ago
        You are taking a side though. Your position that absence of violence is more important than justice means that you expect Zelensky to just roll over and give Russia what it wants, which basically means a complete annexation of Ukraine. You accused others with having a voice of moral superiority, but your "I did not pick a side" is just that. There are only two possible outcomes to this war. Either Ukraine still exists as a sovereign nation, or it doesn't. The first will require continued fighting. There is no possibility for Ukraine to remain sovereign without violently kicking Russia out of its land. Neutrality only supports aggressors.
        2y ago
Mawr 2y ago
Game theory would like to have a word. If I'm Putin and I know you will not defend your country if threatened, what's to stop me from annexing it? And then the whole world? After all, we don't want people to die in wars. It's much better for them to die in concentration camps.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  There are a LOT of things preventing Putin from doing what he SUPPOSEDLY wants, but regardless, you are not Putin, you do not know what he wants or would do. Putin cannot simply just invade countries at whim, assuming he wants to do that.
bashback 2y ago
A privileged question that can only come from someone who has never been truly threatened. Bravo, you're the reason why everyone hates tech companies.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  What? This makes no sense, and your baseless assumptions add nothing. Perhaps you misunderstood my question.

Depends on specific boundaries, but literally all of human history is about fighting for people's rights to hold one boundary or another

johnisgood 2y ago
By boundaries I am referring to the geographical ones, might not be the best term. Like, if Ukraine let Russia have specific regions and it meant millions of people not dying, would people go for it?
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  Probably yes, but he premise is wrong. You know P being a villain and all that.
- Xeamek 2y ago
  So just borders? In the end, it’s the people who fight that determine if the thing they are fighting for is worth their lives. Dying for some lines on the map sounds bad, but if it were only lines on the map, then the people probably wouldn't choose to die for them, would they? Nobody wants to die, but if someone is ready to give up their life for some cause, then who are you to tell them they can't? It's the fate of Ukrainians that is at stake and its the Ukrainians that determine if changing that fate is worth the costs of their lives.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    I am not going to tell them they can't, they can do as they see fit, of course. It is a very subjective topic, however. I might save my family even if it meant the death of hundreds of people, or not, it is a moral dilemma for sure. I do not have an answer. Some people may believe "less people dying" is always favorable.

crazygringo 2y ago

It's not "boundaries". It's about living in a democracy. Is it worth dying to ensure your children live in a democracy where they have control over their future? Or is it better to allow a dictatorship like Russia to engulf your country, and your children grow up under authoritarianism? It's not boundaries as much as an invading political system you despise.

johnisgood 2y ago
I was referring to those specific territories Russia claimed to want.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  Russia wants all of Ukraine. They tried to invade Kyiv. So I'm talking about those specific territories -- all of Ukraine. You don't really think that giving up the territory Russia has taken already is going to stop Russia from advancing further?
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    Why did they try to invade Kyiv exactly? To take it? > You don't really think that giving up the territory Russia has taken already is going to stop Russia from advancing further? I honestly do not know. If they do, then it requires military intervention.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      > Why did they try to invade Kyiv exactly? To take it? Yes. > If they do, then it requires military intervention. Yes. That is the military intervention that Ukraine is continuing to take against Russia currently. Does it all make sense now? Why Ukraine shouldn't just let itself be invaded, in order to avoid deaths?
      - johnisgood 2y ago

louthy 2y ago

Ask the people who tried to scale the Berlin wall before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. Oh, you can't, because they're dead. Shot. Because they were on the wrong side of the boundary.

johnisgood 2y ago
Well, that is people dying. I personally want less people dying, by whatever means necessary.
- corinroyal 2y ago
  Fewer
- ben_w 2y ago
  Short term, or medium term? Because short term survival means surrender, followed by the medium term getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    > getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country. Is it not just speculation? Does it have any merits? Would he do it? What makes you think that it is going to happen, that he wants to do it? Could he actually attempt to do it?
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Is it not just speculation? Does it have any merits? Would he do it? What makes you think that it is going to happen, that he wants to do it? Could he actually attempt to do it? Having already done it three times: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War 3. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-ukrainians-occupied-areas-military https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-ukrainians...

jimbohn 2y ago

Take the chance to freshen up on eastern European history and the absolute dark footprint that russia has cast on it during the centuries. There is a reason why eastern europeans would rather die than be under russian occupation. It's not just about borders, it's about oppression, torture, destruction, and then borders again in a few years. To STILL not see what the russian world is about is truly an exercise in idiocy. Sorry, I had to answer a genuine question with a genuine statement

johnisgood 2y ago
> why eastern europeans would rather die than be under russian occupation. From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union. Additionally, people say (probably rightly so) that Orbán is pro-Putin. Why is it the case?
- jimbohn 2y ago
  >From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union Assuming this is true, it's because these are soviet leftovers who had a low education, were indoctrinated from a young age, and lived during the dream phase where you were told what to do, where to live, etc. Then came the bill when everything collapsed because this didn't work. I can make everybody happy tomorrow by emptying the state coffers and institutionalizing national NEETDOM, can't promise our happiness will last long but we can try! And regardless of what they think, it was shit. Edit: about "why is Orban pro-putin?", this is a joke right?
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    > about "why is Orban pro-putin?", this is a joke right? No, genuine question, he is Eastern European. Let us go further, they claim Hungary is pro-Russian, how come?
    - jimbohn 2y ago
      No, I'd rather not spend my time on what seems to be a promising exercise in moving the goalpost. Not sure I'd classify hungary as eastern European (I was mostly referring to slavs) but sure you can find at least a pro russian guy among eastern europeans, especially dictator ones.

Sohcahtoa82 2y ago

Which is more important to you: Justice or an absence of violence? Sometimes, it's simply not possible to have both. Do you truly expect Ukraine to just roll over?

johnisgood 2y ago
Seems like most people who have replied to my comments want justice over saving millions of people's life. Fine by me, but the assumed and voiced moral superiority is baffling.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > Fine by me, but the assumed and voiced moral superiority is baffling. Can you genuinely not imagine being under the thumb of a dictator who sends you off to die? Elsewhere in this thread you're responding to me as if you don't even seem to accept that this can occur despite the fact that it already has.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    Zelensky did the same. Pick a side if you want. I did not.
    - Sohcahtoa82 2y ago
      You are taking a side though. Your position that absence of violence is more important than justice means that you expect Zelensky to just roll over and give Russia what it wants, which basically means a complete annexation of Ukraine. You accused others with having a voice of moral superiority, but your "I did not pick a side" is just that. There are only two possible outcomes to this war. Either Ukraine still exists as a sovereign nation, or it doesn't. The first will require continued fighting. There is no possibility for Ukraine to remain sovereign without violently kicking Russia out of its land. Neutrality only supports aggressors.
      - 2y ago

Mawr 2y ago

Game theory would like to have a word. If I'm Putin and I know you will not defend your country if threatened, what's to stop me from annexing it? And then the whole world? After all, we don't want people to die in wars. It's much better for them to die in concentration camps.

johnisgood 2y ago
There are a LOT of things preventing Putin from doing what he SUPPOSEDLY wants, but regardless, you are not Putin, you do not know what he wants or would do. Putin cannot simply just invade countries at whim, assuming he wants to do that.

bashback 2y ago

A privileged question that can only come from someone who has never been truly threatened. Bravo, you're the reason why everyone hates tech companies.

johnisgood 2y ago
What? This makes no sense, and your baseless assumptions add nothing. Perhaps you misunderstood my question.