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They have, but they need to double it. You can't count on the US anymore, and Ukraine needs a lot more than it's getting. And let's face it, the EU can easily

by mcv 2y ago

They have, but they need to double it. You can't count on the US anymore, and Ukraine needs a lot more than it's getting. And let's face it, the EU can easily afford it. Sure it hurts a bit. But more war with Russia hurts a lot more. The cheapest way out is to stop Russia in Ukraine, and not give him the opportunity to try again in a few years.

bakuninsbart 2y ago
We can afford it, but it is very difficult to do politically. The rise of far-right parties has everyone spooked, and in ageing societies pensioners cost more and more money, while holding most of the wealth, and constituting the majority of the voting power. Working people feel increasingly disenfrenchised, and it is only going to get worse. At the same time we are judging climate change to still be a larger problem (or we are at least investing a lot more money into it), and there's this horrific fetish for fiscal conservatism in law and in practice.
- naasking 2y ago
  If pensioners have most of the wealth, then they should pay those working class people higher wages to take care of them in their old age. That's one factor of many in to end this disenfranchisement.
bloomingkales 2y ago
How can you afford an indefinite war against a nuclear power? He will just drag you into a quagmire, which always works against the west. I'm genuinely curious what strategy Europe will have here to squeeze Russia.
- ioblomov 2y ago
  Especially when that nuclear power is Russia. After all, if we had to credit a single country, Russia defeated both Napoleon and Hitler.
  - mcv 2y ago
    But they lost to Afghanistan and Finland.
    - notahacker 2y ago
      And a naval engagement to the Czech Foreign Legion :) Russia has historically been very good at killing off invading armies through attrition, but that's not necessarily a strength when they're the invading army in similarly inhospitable conditions
    - FilosofumRex 2y ago
      Russia didn't lose to Afghanistan, rather Russia, Ukraine and Belarus dismantled the Soviet era occupation force. In fact the pro-Soviet government of Afghanistan lasted 3 more years on its own - unlike the US installed government which collapsed before US troops left.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        So, Russia, Ukraine and Belurus lost to Afghanistan.
      - alex-korr 2y ago
        That's not true. The last Soviet soldier has left Afghanistan way before the USSR disintegrated.
    - throw16180339 2y ago
      Everyone who invades Afghanistan loses - the only winning move is not to play.
    - LAC-Tech 2y ago
      They didn't lose to Finland, they forced them to sign a treaty whereby Finland gave up territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty Finland fought exceptionally well, which shocked the world, but they still lost the winter war.
- mcv 2y ago
  Nukes don't give Russia infinite resources. Russia's economy is suffering. They've mostly ran out of modern tanks (except for the T-14 which still hasn't seen combat somehow), they're using donkeys for trucks now, their artillery has lost the punch it had two years ago. They're mostly sending demoralized soldiers in deadly human wave assaults, and dropping bombs on cities. That's all they've got left. Russia has the economy of a medium-sized EU nation. The EU is vastly more powerful. If the EU wants to, they can give Ukraine everything they need to win. Only they're divided and unwilling to believe in their strength after 80 years of dependency on the US.
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    This is hopeful news, because we need a leader right now.
    - rectang 2y ago
      https://thehill.com/homenews/5170019-european-union-diplomat-trump-zelesnky-spat/ https://thehill.com/homenews/5170019-european-union-diplomat... > EU’s top diplomat: ‘The free world needs a new leader’
  - chris_wot 2y ago
    I’ve heard (can’t recall source) that a good proportion of Russia’s nuclear arsenal hasn’t been maintained and is no longer operational.
    - mcv 2y ago
      That is absolutely a possibility, but not a certainty, and a very dangerous gamble to make. That said, Europe probably does need its own nuclear deterrent and its own anti-ballistic missile defense.
    - ioblomov 2y ago
      But is that a game of Russian roulette you'd want to play?
- navane 2y ago
  We burn cash at the front and the richest nation wins.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  It won't be indefinite, eventually the nukes will fly. On a long enough timescale, whether it's this war or the next or the one after that we humans are going to pull the nuclear trigger. The question is "for what reason?" This seems as good a reason as you can have. Much better than an accident or miscalculation.
- labster 2y ago
  Afghanistan could afford an indefinite war against a superpower twice in the past 50 years.
  - klibertp 2y ago
    Not being flat as a pancake could have played a role, though.
jajko 2y ago
Ukraine needs more manpower primarily, they keep saying it for a long time this is a critical issue, they have relatively enough equipment for waging war. At the end equipment can't solve it all, enough boots on the ground is what conquers or defends territories.
- margorczynski 2y ago
  I guess it shows how critical is technology that keeps the human away from harms reach. Drones are a great example of that, especially how costly/hard it is to train a jet pilot. With (almost) fully autonomous weapons and systems it comes down to simply who has the better economy and production lines.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  Says who? They don't even have enough 155 shells, long range drones, body armour, training facilities, fighter jets, bombers, cruise missiles, tanks, howitsers. The list goes on and on. It's exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. They had to develop their own long range drones instead of getting off-the-shelf stuff. Germany blocked Taurus, Tomahawks were a no-go. (The US gave 31 M1 tanks! That's pitiful...)
  - hollerith 2y ago
    Says Michael Kofman.
  - CapricornNoble 2y ago
    >Says who? Says Ukrainian soldiers, reported by Western and Ukrainian media outlets. https://archive.is/Pzxl2 https://archive.is/Pzxl2 (Economist, Feb2025) https://english.nv.ua/nation/generalsyrskyi-says-he-banned-the-transfer-of-highly-qualified-air-force-specialists-to-the-infantry-50482865.html https://english.nv.ua/nation/generalsyrskyi-says-he-banned-t... (NV Ukraine, Jan 2025) However, certain categories of Air Force personnel, after preliminary training in training centers, are reinforcing the Ground Forces and Air Assault Forces due to a shortage of personnel on the front. https://archive.is/YGR00 https://archive.is/YGR00 (WSJ, Oct2024) https://archive.is/WKqxz https://archive.is/WKqxz (Financial Times, Oct2024 but updated) The commanders estimated that 50 to 70 per cent of new infantry troops were killed or wounded within days of starting their first rotation. So if they don't have manpower OR enough weapons, maybe when their head of state comes to ask for support from their biggest benefactor, he should, I dunno....not piss off his host? Wouldn't that help him get what he wants?
etc-hosts 2y ago
The European countries that aren't closely allied with Russia and don't have nuclear power plants all over the place have collapsing economies because they're paying 5X what they used to for Russian gas. It's really grim. I don't think the EU thinks it can afford it at this time.
- brazzy 2y ago
  Sources, please. And pay attention to dates, it's not 2022 anymore.

by mcv 2y ago

bakuninsbart 2y ago

We can afford it, but it is very difficult to do politically. The rise of far-right parties has everyone spooked, and in ageing societies pensioners cost more and more money, while holding most of the wealth, and constituting the majority of the voting power. Working people feel increasingly disenfrenchised, and it is only going to get worse. At the same time we are judging climate change to still be a larger problem (or we are at least investing a lot more money into it), and there's this horrific fetish for fiscal conservatism in law and in practice.

naasking 2y ago
If pensioners have most of the wealth, then they should pay those working class people higher wages to take care of them in their old age. That's one factor of many in to end this disenfranchisement.

bloomingkales 2y ago

How can you afford an indefinite war against a nuclear power? He will just drag you into a quagmire, which always works against the west. I'm genuinely curious what strategy Europe will have here to squeeze Russia.

ioblomov 2y ago
Especially when that nuclear power is Russia. After all, if we had to credit a single country, Russia defeated both Napoleon and Hitler.
- mcv 2y ago
  But they lost to Afghanistan and Finland.
  - notahacker 2y ago
    And a naval engagement to the Czech Foreign Legion :) Russia has historically been very good at killing off invading armies through attrition, but that's not necessarily a strength when they're the invading army in similarly inhospitable conditions
  - FilosofumRex 2y ago
    Russia didn't lose to Afghanistan, rather Russia, Ukraine and Belarus dismantled the Soviet era occupation force. In fact the pro-Soviet government of Afghanistan lasted 3 more years on its own - unlike the US installed government which collapsed before US troops left.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      So, Russia, Ukraine and Belurus lost to Afghanistan.
    - alex-korr 2y ago
      That's not true. The last Soviet soldier has left Afghanistan way before the USSR disintegrated.
  - throw16180339 2y ago
    Everyone who invades Afghanistan loses - the only winning move is not to play.
  - LAC-Tech 2y ago
    They didn't lose to Finland, they forced them to sign a treaty whereby Finland gave up territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty Finland fought exceptionally well, which shocked the world, but they still lost the winter war.
mcv 2y ago
Nukes don't give Russia infinite resources. Russia's economy is suffering. They've mostly ran out of modern tanks (except for the T-14 which still hasn't seen combat somehow), they're using donkeys for trucks now, their artillery has lost the punch it had two years ago. They're mostly sending demoralized soldiers in deadly human wave assaults, and dropping bombs on cities. That's all they've got left. Russia has the economy of a medium-sized EU nation. The EU is vastly more powerful. If the EU wants to, they can give Ukraine everything they need to win. Only they're divided and unwilling to believe in their strength after 80 years of dependency on the US.
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  This is hopeful news, because we need a leader right now.
  - rectang 2y ago
    https://thehill.com/homenews/5170019-european-union-diplomat-trump-zelesnky-spat/ https://thehill.com/homenews/5170019-european-union-diplomat... > EU’s top diplomat: ‘The free world needs a new leader’
- chris_wot 2y ago
  I’ve heard (can’t recall source) that a good proportion of Russia’s nuclear arsenal hasn’t been maintained and is no longer operational.
  - mcv 2y ago
    That is absolutely a possibility, but not a certainty, and a very dangerous gamble to make. That said, Europe probably does need its own nuclear deterrent and its own anti-ballistic missile defense.
  - ioblomov 2y ago
    But is that a game of Russian roulette you'd want to play?
navane 2y ago
We burn cash at the front and the richest nation wins.
jcgrillo 2y ago
It won't be indefinite, eventually the nukes will fly. On a long enough timescale, whether it's this war or the next or the one after that we humans are going to pull the nuclear trigger. The question is "for what reason?" This seems as good a reason as you can have. Much better than an accident or miscalculation.
labster 2y ago
Afghanistan could afford an indefinite war against a superpower twice in the past 50 years.
- klibertp 2y ago
  Not being flat as a pancake could have played a role, though.

jajko 2y ago

Ukraine needs more manpower primarily, they keep saying it for a long time this is a critical issue, they have relatively enough equipment for waging war. At the end equipment can't solve it all, enough boots on the ground is what conquers or defends territories.

margorczynski 2y ago
I guess it shows how critical is technology that keeps the human away from harms reach. Drones are a great example of that, especially how costly/hard it is to train a jet pilot. With (almost) fully autonomous weapons and systems it comes down to simply who has the better economy and production lines.
actionfromafar 2y ago
Says who? They don't even have enough 155 shells, long range drones, body armour, training facilities, fighter jets, bombers, cruise missiles, tanks, howitsers. The list goes on and on. It's exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. They had to develop their own long range drones instead of getting off-the-shelf stuff. Germany blocked Taurus, Tomahawks were a no-go. (The US gave 31 M1 tanks! That's pitiful...)
- hollerith 2y ago
  Says Michael Kofman.
- CapricornNoble 2y ago
  >Says who? Says Ukrainian soldiers, reported by Western and Ukrainian media outlets. https://archive.is/Pzxl2 https://archive.is/Pzxl2 (Economist, Feb2025) https://english.nv.ua/nation/generalsyrskyi-says-he-banned-the-transfer-of-highly-qualified-air-force-specialists-to-the-infantry-50482865.html https://english.nv.ua/nation/generalsyrskyi-says-he-banned-t... (NV Ukraine, Jan 2025) However, certain categories of Air Force personnel, after preliminary training in training centers, are reinforcing the Ground Forces and Air Assault Forces due to a shortage of personnel on the front. https://archive.is/YGR00 https://archive.is/YGR00 (WSJ, Oct2024) https://archive.is/WKqxz https://archive.is/WKqxz (Financial Times, Oct2024 but updated) The commanders estimated that 50 to 70 per cent of new infantry troops were killed or wounded within days of starting their first rotation. So if they don't have manpower OR enough weapons, maybe when their head of state comes to ask for support from their biggest benefactor, he should, I dunno....not piss off his host? Wouldn't that help him get what he wants?

etc-hosts 2y ago

The European countries that aren't closely allied with Russia and don't have nuclear power plants all over the place have collapsing economies because they're paying 5X what they used to for Russian gas. It's really grim. I don't think the EU thinks it can afford it at this time.

brazzy 2y ago
Sources, please. And pay attention to dates, it's not 2022 anymore.