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A lot of people here are angry with Trump about this. But if you watch the full meeting, it's clear Zelensky could have avoided this fiasco. Just the facts: 1

A lot of people here are angry with Trump about this. But if you watch the full meeting, it's clear Zelensky could have avoided this fiasco. Just the facts: 1. Zelensky did indeed say thank you, at the beginning of the conference. 2. Zelensky made faces at various points of the initial questions. Mostly in frustration with reporters but also in frustration with Trump 3. Zelensky shook his head when Trump started making some remark he disagreed with. A reporter even followed up on him shaking his head. This was the preamble to the bigger argument. 4. Finally, Zelensky asked Vance a provocative question "what kind of diplomacy are you talking about?" which started the shouting match. Zelensky and this administration simply do not want the same thing. This kind of altercation was probably inevitable in some fashion, but it should've been done in private. Zelensky now gives no chance for the administration to even save face if they do decide to help more.

Rapzid 2y ago
Avoided what exactly? If the emperor wants to show the world he has no clothes, why stop him? They've been "negotiating" with Ukraine's invader behind Ukraine's back. Concocting mineral right "deals" that they believe Ukraine _must_ accept; without their involvement and without security guarantees. Voting "against" them in the UN. Making false statements about who invaded who. Etc. And he's gonna not, rather politely, push back and ask questions instead of getting steamrolled? They started this off with Brian Glenn grilling him over his lack of suite and accusing him of disrespect while they snickered and sneered. Let's not forgot that those "jokes", and this entire presser, are in the context of an ongoing war with nearly 1,000,000 dead and wounded now. If anything I think Zelensky smoked them out for all of the US public and Europe to see. Why would he avoid that?!
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  Because he didn't get what he wanted, which is money and security guarantees. Zelensky and his team wanted this minerals deal to happen because they saw it as a step towards getting Americans on their frontier, which would act as a shield against Russia. He even wanted to come back to the White House after the fiasco. Trump says no.
  - Rapzid 2y ago
    That was something everyone needed to see IMHO. The problem isn't going away, and pretty much all of Europe(all western liberal democracies really) have come out in support since that meeting. They may get what they need yet.
    - cynicalpeace 2y ago
      Yeah, we don't know yet, but if Europe steps up, USA will be happy, Trump will be happy, Ukraine will be happy too. But Europe would never step up if Trump didn't play hardball. The issue is- who from Europe will step up? All the European governments are overwhelmingly bureaucratic and boring. No leader amongst them.
  - trymas 2y ago
    I’d say money and security guarantees were never on the table. My speculation is this - Trump in his head thought he could steam roll “peace in 24h” kind of thing with no pushback like he can do domestically. He went (behind Ukraine’s back) to talk with ruzzians - they gave a hint that it’s either total Ukraine’s capitulation or they are not interested. Trump then tried to extort Zelenski into signing capitulation wrapped into “minerals deal”. I strongly believe Zelenski was hoping to find common ground in the white house, but trump did not give in and understandably, neither Zelenski wanted to stick to original plan as he said it multiple times in a week before. Then Trump felt fire under his feet - mister “art if the deal” couldn’t strong arm Ukraine into capitulation. How he will look against MAGA? He needs to show he’s “the man”. Bully the man standing up to the modern Mordor, like a bunch of 13 year olds after school. .. but “it’s great TV”. EDIT: btw trump could’ve used same leverage against ruzzia. I’d argue ruzzia is not in better spot than Ukraine. Blockade ruzzian shadow fleets, set fire to their war chest, whatever. But trump instead chose to align himself with despotic dictators instead of alies. Trump is really scared of Putin (see Helsinki meeting of 2018), but has personal vendetta against Zelenski for not bending the knee for Biden investigation.
    - cynicalpeace 2y ago
      > I strongly believe Zelenski was hoping to find common ground in the white house, but trump did not give in and understandably, neither Zelenski wanted to stick to original plan as he said it multiple times in a week before. This is simply not true. Zelensky and his cabinet rewrote the initial minerals deal (which was not favorable to them) and wanted it. Zelensky even wanted to come back to the White House to sign it.
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Say what? Zelenskyy's question is perfectly reasonable and not at all aggressive because of the context provided by the history that Zelenskyy has previously explained ad nauseum. Trump and Vance react aggressively / defensively to it because they don't have an answer that fits their narrative, so the only option they have up their sleeve is aggressive accusation to distract from their lack of a decent answer. They're in denial of reality.
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  This wasn't some neighborhood argument. Zelensky should've appealed to their egos in order to get what he wants, which is money and security guarantees. Now it's even less likely he'll get that.
otterley 2y ago
You might benefit from the WSJ’s perspective: https://www.wsj.com/opinion/putin-wins-the-trump-zelensky-oval-office-spectacle-e23e9b21?st=55kHdD&reflink=article_copyURL_share https://www.wsj.com/opinion/putin-wins-the-trump-zelensky-ov...
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  bad article. I watched the whole meeting. WSJ lies and say Vance started the whole thing. You can obviously see that's not true if you just watch the 46 minute meeting. Vance said Trump was trying to be diplomatic, which is, in fact, true. Whether true or not, or whether he agrees with diplomacy or not, Zelensky should've moved on. He didn't. he started an argument with his hosts in their own house. Bad move.
  - otterley 2y ago
    Can you point to specific acts and utterances during the meeting, prior to the meltdown, that support your opinion? It should be noted that WSJ is conservative and owned by News Corp. They have often sided with Trump. They have no reason not to paint his actions in a light most favorable to him. Finally, it is the responsibility of our heads of state and government to keep as cool a head as possible, even when are challenged. This is a basic requirement of a good manager, let alone the leader of the free world.
    - cynicalpeace 2y ago
      Vance: “For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States’ words mattered more than the president of the United States’ actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That’s what President Trump is doing.” Zelenskyy: “Can I ask you?” Vance: “Sure. Yeah.” Zelenskyy: “OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years — I’m not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --" Trump: “2015?” Zelenskyy: “2014.” Trump: “Oh, 2014? I was not here.” Vance: “That’s exactly right.” Zelenskyy: “Yes, but during 2014 ‘til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn’t exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn’t do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?” ---- Then the argument starts. Vance's said nothing aggressive against Zelensky, he was talking to a reporter. He, like I said, said Trump is trying to be diplomatic, which, like I said, is true. For the 40 minutes before this exchange both sides were obviously in disagreement about certain things, but it was quite respectful, tho Zelensky was obviously frustrated at times. Also, there's a moment during the argument when Zelensky literally calls Vance suka under his breath watch the clip in this article. [1] The mainstream media hates Trump and Vance and want to blame them for a cloudy day. But if you just watch the full video you can see it's much more complicated than that. [1] https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/us-news/2025/03/01/67c3264a46163f933d8b45a2.html https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/us-news/2025/03/01/67c326...

Rapzid 2y ago

Avoided what exactly? If the emperor wants to show the world he has no clothes, why stop him? They've been "negotiating" with Ukraine's invader behind Ukraine's back. Concocting mineral right "deals" that they believe Ukraine _must_ accept; without their involvement and without security guarantees. Voting "against" them in the UN. Making false statements about who invaded who. Etc. And he's gonna not, rather politely, push back and ask questions instead of getting steamrolled? They started this off with Brian Glenn grilling him over his lack of suite and accusing him of disrespect while they snickered and sneered. Let's not forgot that those "jokes", and this entire presser, are in the context of an ongoing war with nearly 1,000,000 dead and wounded now. If anything I think Zelensky smoked them out for all of the US public and Europe to see. Why would he avoid that?!

cynicalpeace 2y ago
Because he didn't get what he wanted, which is money and security guarantees. Zelensky and his team wanted this minerals deal to happen because they saw it as a step towards getting Americans on their frontier, which would act as a shield against Russia. He even wanted to come back to the White House after the fiasco. Trump says no.
- Rapzid 2y ago
  That was something everyone needed to see IMHO. The problem isn't going away, and pretty much all of Europe(all western liberal democracies really) have come out in support since that meeting. They may get what they need yet.
  - cynicalpeace 2y ago
    Yeah, we don't know yet, but if Europe steps up, USA will be happy, Trump will be happy, Ukraine will be happy too. But Europe would never step up if Trump didn't play hardball. The issue is- who from Europe will step up? All the European governments are overwhelmingly bureaucratic and boring. No leader amongst them.
- trymas 2y ago
  I’d say money and security guarantees were never on the table. My speculation is this - Trump in his head thought he could steam roll “peace in 24h” kind of thing with no pushback like he can do domestically. He went (behind Ukraine’s back) to talk with ruzzians - they gave a hint that it’s either total Ukraine’s capitulation or they are not interested. Trump then tried to extort Zelenski into signing capitulation wrapped into “minerals deal”. I strongly believe Zelenski was hoping to find common ground in the white house, but trump did not give in and understandably, neither Zelenski wanted to stick to original plan as he said it multiple times in a week before. Then Trump felt fire under his feet - mister “art if the deal” couldn’t strong arm Ukraine into capitulation. How he will look against MAGA? He needs to show he’s “the man”. Bully the man standing up to the modern Mordor, like a bunch of 13 year olds after school. .. but “it’s great TV”. EDIT: btw trump could’ve used same leverage against ruzzia. I’d argue ruzzia is not in better spot than Ukraine. Blockade ruzzian shadow fleets, set fire to their war chest, whatever. But trump instead chose to align himself with despotic dictators instead of alies. Trump is really scared of Putin (see Helsinki meeting of 2018), but has personal vendetta against Zelenski for not bending the knee for Biden investigation.
  - cynicalpeace 2y ago
    > I strongly believe Zelenski was hoping to find common ground in the white house, but trump did not give in and understandably, neither Zelenski wanted to stick to original plan as he said it multiple times in a week before. This is simply not true. Zelensky and his cabinet rewrote the initial minerals deal (which was not favorable to them) and wanted it. Zelensky even wanted to come back to the White House to sign it.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago

Say what? Zelenskyy's question is perfectly reasonable and not at all aggressive because of the context provided by the history that Zelenskyy has previously explained ad nauseum. Trump and Vance react aggressively / defensively to it because they don't have an answer that fits their narrative, so the only option they have up their sleeve is aggressive accusation to distract from their lack of a decent answer. They're in denial of reality.

cynicalpeace 2y ago
This wasn't some neighborhood argument. Zelensky should've appealed to their egos in order to get what he wants, which is money and security guarantees. Now it's even less likely he'll get that.

otterley 2y ago

You might benefit from the WSJ’s perspective: https://www.wsj.com/opinion/putin-wins-the-trump-zelensky-oval-office-spectacle-e23e9b21?st=55kHdD&reflink=article_copyURL_share https://www.wsj.com/opinion/putin-wins-the-trump-zelensky-ov...

cynicalpeace 2y ago
bad article. I watched the whole meeting. WSJ lies and say Vance started the whole thing. You can obviously see that's not true if you just watch the 46 minute meeting. Vance said Trump was trying to be diplomatic, which is, in fact, true. Whether true or not, or whether he agrees with diplomacy or not, Zelensky should've moved on. He didn't. he started an argument with his hosts in their own house. Bad move.
- otterley 2y ago
  Can you point to specific acts and utterances during the meeting, prior to the meltdown, that support your opinion? It should be noted that WSJ is conservative and owned by News Corp. They have often sided with Trump. They have no reason not to paint his actions in a light most favorable to him. Finally, it is the responsibility of our heads of state and government to keep as cool a head as possible, even when are challenged. This is a basic requirement of a good manager, let alone the leader of the free world.
  - cynicalpeace 2y ago
    Vance: “For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States’ words mattered more than the president of the United States’ actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That’s what President Trump is doing.” Zelenskyy: “Can I ask you?” Vance: “Sure. Yeah.” Zelenskyy: “OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years — I’m not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --" Trump: “2015?” Zelenskyy: “2014.” Trump: “Oh, 2014? I was not here.” Vance: “That’s exactly right.” Zelenskyy: “Yes, but during 2014 ‘til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn’t exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn’t do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?” ---- Then the argument starts. Vance's said nothing aggressive against Zelensky, he was talking to a reporter. He, like I said, said Trump is trying to be diplomatic, which, like I said, is true. For the 40 minutes before this exchange both sides were obviously in disagreement about certain things, but it was quite respectful, tho Zelensky was obviously frustrated at times. Also, there's a moment during the argument when Zelensky literally calls Vance suka under his breath watch the clip in this article. [1] The mainstream media hates Trump and Vance and want to blame them for a cloudy day. But if you just watch the full video you can see it's much more complicated than that. [1] https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/us-news/2025/03/01/67c3264a46163f933d8b45a2.html https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/us-news/2025/03/01/67c326...