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I’m not sure it will help if we disclose taxpayers that the loan won’t be paid back. The idea was to sweep it under the rug, not boast about the EU’s lost money

I’m not sure it will help if we disclose taxpayers that the loan won’t be paid back. The idea was to sweep it under the rug, not boast about the EU’s lost money.

vuln 2y ago
[flagged]
- skirmish 2y ago
  Oh, you mean their children would be so much happier under Russia's rule once it invades more European countries? Those people may argue with that.
flir 2y ago
Better than Russia salami-slicing its way into Europe. Ukranians are dying. We're donating cash and materiel. We're getting the better end of the deal there, and then some.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >Ukranians are dying. Of course they are, what did you expect would happen in war? Fighting with pillows? However it's not my responsibility to bear financially. My responsibility is caring for my own. >We're donating cash People are dying here as well as politicians are saying the healthcare is underfunded so clearly we need the cash back home.
TomK32 2y ago
No one will bother about those loans when a Ukrainian victory will give the EU access to at least the Ukrainian market if not also the market of a new democratic Russia. Please do some long-term thinking on this.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  But people are bothered about affording food and rent now, and when they see their tax euros aboard they're gonna be salty, and speak of potential future winnings (which are all gonna go to some megacorps anyway) are not comforting.
- throw16180339 2y ago
  There are reasons why the EU should support the Ukraine, but access to the Ukrainian market isn't one of them. The Ukrainian GDP is 179 billion USD (https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp?continent=europe https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp?continent=euro...); they're a market smaller than Greece (244 billion USD) or Hungary (212 billion USD). If they succeed in driving the Russians out, they'll have to rebuild their country and will probably be in debt for decades. Democracy in Russia is a pipe dream; they have nuclear weapons and Putin isn't about to give up power. I guess it's possible that his successor could hold elections, but that's highly unlikely at best.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    EU companies want the natural resources of Ukraine and access to their cheap labor.
earthnail 2y ago
Noone in Europe knows these are loans. Everyone assumes the money is gone. Politicians don’t talk about loans, they talk about giving money to Ukraine. Loans are the way to do it because of the way most European budgets work. But you can’t call them regular loans in good faith, and no politician in Europe does so. The language towards the public is that Europe is giving money.
- throw930404945 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - earthnail 2y ago
    I don’t see how you’re describing anything other than what I’ve described. The money may come from the private sector, but the government guarantees for it. This is government spending. On paper, the government may theoretically not have to pay, but in practice everyone knows that the loans aren’t paid back and then the government must pay for them. These loans really are just creative accounting for giving money within the budgetary constraints European governments find themselves in.
  - xorcist 2y ago
    That's just a technicality. There is no "EU" tax so the institutions does not have the billions to give away. They can however secure loans so that is the method being used. But make no mistake what is happening here. Look at the backing countries and how they are spending on Ukraine. There you will see the direct donations. No EU member country has yet to make a billion dollar repayment claim post facto. Certainly not five hundred billion.

I’m not sure it will help if we disclose taxpayers that the loan won’t be paid back. The idea was to sweep it under the rug, not boast about the EU’s lost money.

vuln 2y ago

[flagged]

skirmish 2y ago
Oh, you mean their children would be so much happier under Russia's rule once it invades more European countries? Those people may argue with that.

flir 2y ago

Better than Russia salami-slicing its way into Europe. Ukranians are dying. We're donating cash and materiel. We're getting the better end of the deal there, and then some.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>Ukranians are dying. Of course they are, what did you expect would happen in war? Fighting with pillows? However it's not my responsibility to bear financially. My responsibility is caring for my own. >We're donating cash People are dying here as well as politicians are saying the healthcare is underfunded so clearly we need the cash back home.

TomK32 2y ago

No one will bother about those loans when a Ukrainian victory will give the EU access to at least the Ukrainian market if not also the market of a new democratic Russia. Please do some long-term thinking on this.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
But people are bothered about affording food and rent now, and when they see their tax euros aboard they're gonna be salty, and speak of potential future winnings (which are all gonna go to some megacorps anyway) are not comforting.
throw16180339 2y ago
There are reasons why the EU should support the Ukraine, but access to the Ukrainian market isn't one of them. The Ukrainian GDP is 179 billion USD (https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp?continent=europe https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp?continent=euro...); they're a market smaller than Greece (244 billion USD) or Hungary (212 billion USD). If they succeed in driving the Russians out, they'll have to rebuild their country and will probably be in debt for decades. Democracy in Russia is a pipe dream; they have nuclear weapons and Putin isn't about to give up power. I guess it's possible that his successor could hold elections, but that's highly unlikely at best.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  EU companies want the natural resources of Ukraine and access to their cheap labor.

earthnail 2y ago

Noone in Europe knows these are loans. Everyone assumes the money is gone. Politicians don’t talk about loans, they talk about giving money to Ukraine. Loans are the way to do it because of the way most European budgets work. But you can’t call them regular loans in good faith, and no politician in Europe does so. The language towards the public is that Europe is giving money.

throw930404945 2y ago
[flagged]
- earthnail 2y ago
  I don’t see how you’re describing anything other than what I’ve described. The money may come from the private sector, but the government guarantees for it. This is government spending. On paper, the government may theoretically not have to pay, but in practice everyone knows that the loans aren’t paid back and then the government must pay for them. These loans really are just creative accounting for giving money within the budgetary constraints European governments find themselves in.
- xorcist 2y ago
  That's just a technicality. There is no "EU" tax so the institutions does not have the billions to give away. They can however secure loans so that is the method being used. But make no mistake what is happening here. Look at the backing countries and how they are spending on Ukraine. There you will see the direct donations. No EU member country has yet to make a billion dollar repayment claim post facto. Certainly not five hundred billion.