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Your statement doesn't make sense. Most Americans do support Israel and are very opposed to Putin and Russia. Check the polls. Which is why it's suspicious t

Your statement doesn't make sense. Most Americans do support Israel and are very opposed to Putin and Russia. Check the polls. Which is why it's suspicious that JD Vance and Trump seem so afraid to upset Putin. The idea that Russsia could have compromising information on one or both of them is entirely plausible. It's a way politicians have been controlled for literally thousands of years. J. Edgar Hoover controlled every US president for fifty years with this one simple trick.

rayiner 2y ago
Most people also want a negotiated end to the war: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HHP_Feb2025_vFinal.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HHP... Americans aren’t wiling to invest in what it would take to win the war. So Trump has to break Zelensky’s spirit so there can be a settlement.
- brookst 2y ago
  That may be the game theory, but the reality is it will galvanize non-US support for Ukraine while further isolating the US from historic allies. Europe cannot let Putin win. It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets. So instead, the US will either be neutral or supporting Russia. Not a great outcome for anyone except Russia.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    It’s a great outcome for americans, who don’t care what happens in europe. If europe could handle its own business Trump and his voters would be thrilled.
    - xorcist 2y ago
      And the US did not have interests in Ukraine? As if the past two decades never happened?
      - rayiner 2y ago
        The US had no interests in Ukraine, it had no interest in Iraq, it had no interest in Kuwait, it had no interest in Vietnam, etc. Ukraine was a member of the Soviet Union since 1917. Was it hurting America to not have Ukraine as an “ally” that whole time? Clearly not!
        xorcist 2y ago
        Not sure if sarcasm or some type of counterfactual history? It does not matter how we ended up here, but we have an obligation to select for the least bad outcome.
    - creato 2y ago
      It would be understandable to step back from Ukraine. There's a reasonable argument to be made there. I disagree, but I can understand the position. It's not understandable to support Russia and say things like Ukraine started the war. That's just pure ignorant bullshit.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        It's a typical garbled Trumpism. But what do you know about the history of the end of the Cold War? You knew that the U.S. assured Russia at the time that NATO would not expand to Russia's border, did you not? https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...
    - catlover76 2y ago
      [dead]
    - dwattttt 2y ago
      And people don't want the government anywhere near their lives, until people with big sticks start poking at them instead. The US populace can stick its head in the sand & say the rest of the world doesn't need them, but what if a superpower starts snapping up that rest of the world?
  - treis 2y ago
    >It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets. Poland would wipe the floor with Russia.
- watwut 2y ago
  Americans are supporting Russia now. Not just not helping Ukraine to save money. USA leadership is actively and openly supporting Russia. USA does not have to do that, USA want to do that. They could stay away, they could support Ukraine. USA choice however was to support Russia.
  - redeeman 2y ago
    could you perhaps give a few non-imaginary examples of this?
    - cycomanic 2y ago
      How about saying Ukraine started the war, calling Zelenskiy a dictator (while refusing to call Putin one), saying Ukraine needs to give up land to Russia, calling for elections in Ukraine (again crickets about Russian elections), calling for improved economic relationships with Russia, while at the same time trying to force Ukraine into a ridiculous "deal" where they give up all their natural resources for essentially nothing... Can I stop?
      - digitaltrees 2y ago
        The fact that we have to point this out is so frustrating. My whole family is buy the Russian propaganda entirely. And these basic facts don’t make it through their eco chambers. Worse any evidence is dismissed as fake news. I don’t think America can come back from this. Russia won the Cold War.
- munk-a 2y ago
  There are several (and a few directly conflicting) polls in that document which I think reflects realty - most people haven't come down hard on stances involving Ukraine and remain flexible. As an example: "Do you favor or oppose Donald Trump announcing direct U.S.-Russia negotiations to end the war in Ukraine?" 60% in favor, but "Do you favor or oppose the Trump administration leaving Ukraine’s leaders out of negotiations with Russia to end the war in Ukraine?" 41% in favor. Additionally 57% oppose territorial concessions (which Trump has forced to be on the table) and 66% favor US security guarantees (which Trump has so far demurred on and tried to foist off onto the EU). To me, at least, it's pretty clear that the negotiations are not in line with the will of the American populace as territorial concessions, resource concessions, no security guarantees and no multi-lateral opposition force to Russian expansionism have seemed like priorities to the current administration.
- ericmay 2y ago
  Agreed - most people would basically like to see an end to the war, which is what is broadly envisioned by a "negotiated end to the war". But I'd question your assumption that Americans aren't willing to invest what it would take to win the war (depending on what a victory entails) and instead I'd suggest that this assumption needs a bit more research. I for one am very happy to see our tax dollars be used to support Ukraine, primarily because I think it's an investment in preventing a more expensive war in the future. It's unfortunate because we are basically just incurring a cost we didn't want to incur, but at the end of the day this is just the hand we're dealt with.
- vFunct 2y ago
  Harvard-Harris poll have a well known right wing bias, enough so that Harvard students are calling to disassociate from them. They’re especially flagrant in how they lead on the poll respondents. For example, they use Israel vs Hamas instead of Israel vs Palestinenin their poll questions. A more neutral and far more informative and useful poll is YouGov-Economist poll. Their methodology is based on app polling instead of phone polling. They subdivide their responses based on demographics, and they poll every week, often repeating the same questions to gauge trends for very detailed analysis. Wish more pollsters were like YouGov.
shihab 2y ago
61% Americans opposed sending weapons to Israel. They got sent anyway [1]. Similarly at world stage, American govt had to bring out the veto card 49 times in Israel's defense- it was alone against the world, even all of it's strongest European allies [2]. [1] https://www.scribd.com/document/740568401/Cbsnews-20240609-SUN-NAT https://www.scribd.com/document/740568401/Cbsnews-20240609-S.... Question No 52. [2] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/49-times-us-has-used-veto-power-against-un-resolutions-israel https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/49-times-us-has-used-veto...
- theoryofx 2y ago
  Neither of these points contradict the fact that Americans very broadly support Israel and are opposed to Putin and Russia. Of course there are varying degrees of support on any specific issue. Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is.
  - skyyler 2y ago
    >Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is. Whataboutism. When China starts bombing hospitals, let us know.
    - theoryofx 2y ago
      Pointing out a legitimate double standard is not "whataboutism" in the least. Either you have principles that apply equally or you do not. China sterilizing and and enslaving a million Uyghurs isn't bad enough to warrant your condemnation? We have different values.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago

rayiner 2y ago

Most people also want a negotiated end to the war: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HHP_Feb2025_vFinal.pdf https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HHP... Americans aren’t wiling to invest in what it would take to win the war. So Trump has to break Zelensky’s spirit so there can be a settlement.

brookst 2y ago
That may be the game theory, but the reality is it will galvanize non-US support for Ukraine while further isolating the US from historic allies. Europe cannot let Putin win. It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets. So instead, the US will either be neutral or supporting Russia. Not a great outcome for anyone except Russia.
- rayiner 2y ago
  It’s a great outcome for americans, who don’t care what happens in europe. If europe could handle its own business Trump and his voters would be thrilled.
  - xorcist 2y ago
    And the US did not have interests in Ukraine? As if the past two decades never happened?
    - rayiner 2y ago
      The US had no interests in Ukraine, it had no interest in Iraq, it had no interest in Kuwait, it had no interest in Vietnam, etc. Ukraine was a member of the Soviet Union since 1917. Was it hurting America to not have Ukraine as an “ally” that whole time? Clearly not!
      - xorcist 2y ago
        Not sure if sarcasm or some type of counterfactual history? It does not matter how we ended up here, but we have an obligation to select for the least bad outcome.
  - creato 2y ago
    It would be understandable to step back from Ukraine. There's a reasonable argument to be made there. I disagree, but I can understand the position. It's not understandable to support Russia and say things like Ukraine started the war. That's just pure ignorant bullshit.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      It's a typical garbled Trumpism. But what do you know about the history of the end of the Cold War? You knew that the U.S. assured Russia at the time that NATO would not expand to Russia's border, did you not? https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...
  - catlover76 2y ago
    [dead]
  - dwattttt 2y ago
    And people don't want the government anywhere near their lives, until people with big sticks start poking at them instead. The US populace can stick its head in the sand & say the rest of the world doesn't need them, but what if a superpower starts snapping up that rest of the world?
- treis 2y ago
  >It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets. Poland would wipe the floor with Russia.
watwut 2y ago
Americans are supporting Russia now. Not just not helping Ukraine to save money. USA leadership is actively and openly supporting Russia. USA does not have to do that, USA want to do that. They could stay away, they could support Ukraine. USA choice however was to support Russia.
- redeeman 2y ago
  could you perhaps give a few non-imaginary examples of this?
  - cycomanic 2y ago
    How about saying Ukraine started the war, calling Zelenskiy a dictator (while refusing to call Putin one), saying Ukraine needs to give up land to Russia, calling for elections in Ukraine (again crickets about Russian elections), calling for improved economic relationships with Russia, while at the same time trying to force Ukraine into a ridiculous "deal" where they give up all their natural resources for essentially nothing... Can I stop?
    - digitaltrees 2y ago
      The fact that we have to point this out is so frustrating. My whole family is buy the Russian propaganda entirely. And these basic facts don’t make it through their eco chambers. Worse any evidence is dismissed as fake news. I don’t think America can come back from this. Russia won the Cold War.
munk-a 2y ago
There are several (and a few directly conflicting) polls in that document which I think reflects realty - most people haven't come down hard on stances involving Ukraine and remain flexible. As an example: "Do you favor or oppose Donald Trump announcing direct U.S.-Russia negotiations to end the war in Ukraine?" 60% in favor, but "Do you favor or oppose the Trump administration leaving Ukraine’s leaders out of negotiations with Russia to end the war in Ukraine?" 41% in favor. Additionally 57% oppose territorial concessions (which Trump has forced to be on the table) and 66% favor US security guarantees (which Trump has so far demurred on and tried to foist off onto the EU). To me, at least, it's pretty clear that the negotiations are not in line with the will of the American populace as territorial concessions, resource concessions, no security guarantees and no multi-lateral opposition force to Russian expansionism have seemed like priorities to the current administration.
ericmay 2y ago
Agreed - most people would basically like to see an end to the war, which is what is broadly envisioned by a "negotiated end to the war". But I'd question your assumption that Americans aren't willing to invest what it would take to win the war (depending on what a victory entails) and instead I'd suggest that this assumption needs a bit more research. I for one am very happy to see our tax dollars be used to support Ukraine, primarily because I think it's an investment in preventing a more expensive war in the future. It's unfortunate because we are basically just incurring a cost we didn't want to incur, but at the end of the day this is just the hand we're dealt with.
vFunct 2y ago
Harvard-Harris poll have a well known right wing bias, enough so that Harvard students are calling to disassociate from them. They’re especially flagrant in how they lead on the poll respondents. For example, they use Israel vs Hamas instead of Israel vs Palestinenin their poll questions. A more neutral and far more informative and useful poll is YouGov-Economist poll. Their methodology is based on app polling instead of phone polling. They subdivide their responses based on demographics, and they poll every week, often repeating the same questions to gauge trends for very detailed analysis. Wish more pollsters were like YouGov.

shihab 2y ago

61% Americans opposed sending weapons to Israel. They got sent anyway [1]. Similarly at world stage, American govt had to bring out the veto card 49 times in Israel's defense- it was alone against the world, even all of it's strongest European allies [2]. [1] https://www.scribd.com/document/740568401/Cbsnews-20240609-SUN-NAT https://www.scribd.com/document/740568401/Cbsnews-20240609-S.... Question No 52. [2] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/49-times-us-has-used-veto-power-against-un-resolutions-israel https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/49-times-us-has-used-veto...

theoryofx 2y ago
Neither of these points contradict the fact that Americans very broadly support Israel and are opposed to Putin and Russia. Of course there are varying degrees of support on any specific issue. Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is.
- skyyler 2y ago
  >Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is. Whataboutism. When China starts bombing hospitals, let us know.
  - theoryofx 2y ago
    Pointing out a legitimate double standard is not "whataboutism" in the least. Either you have principles that apply equally or you do not. China sterilizing and and enslaving a million Uyghurs isn't bad enough to warrant your condemnation? We have different values.
- ForOldHack 2y ago